MBB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[Mr. Ypsi]

My bad on the number of teams from the CCIW making the tourney.  I must have double counted someone as I went through the league website.

[Titan Q]

My bad on the number of teams from the CCIW making the tourney.  I must have double counted someone as I went through the league website.

You're never one to let facts get in the way of a good point, Chuck.  That's what I like about you.

[Mr. Ypsi]

My bad on the number of teams from the CCIW making the tourney.  I must have double counted someone as I went through the league website.

You're never one to let facts get in the way of a good point, Chuck.  That's what I like about you.

Hey, I went with the facts.  Unfortunately one turned out to be a 'false fact'!

[algernon]

Last appearance in NCAA tournament:

Augustana: 2007-08
Carthage: 2009-10
Elmhurst: 2008-09
Illinois Wesleyan: 2009-10
Millikin: 1988-89
North Central: 2005-06
North Park: 1989-90
Wheaton: 2009-10

CCIW NCAA appearances, last 10 completed seasons (2000-01 through 2009-10):

Illinois Wesleyan: 6
Wheaton: 4
Augustana: 3
Carthage: 3
Elmhurst: 2
North Central: 1
Millikin: 0
North Park: 0

ODAC Teams - Last appearance in NCAA tournament:

Eastern Mennonite: 2010
Guilford: 2010
Randolph-Macon: 2010
Virginia Wesleyan: 2010
Hampden-Sydney: 2007
Roanoke: 2001
Bridgewater: 1997
Emory & Henry: 1993
Washington and Lee: 1980
Lynchburg: 1979

ODAC NCAA appearances, last 10 completed seasons (2000-01 through 2009-10):

Virginia Wesleyan: 6
Hampden-Sydney: 5
Randolph-Macon: 5
Guilford: 4
Eastern Mennonite: 1
Roanoke: 1
Bridgewater: 0
Emory & Henry: 0
Lynchburg: 0
Washington and Lee: 0

[hasanova]

algernon - Guilford's made 4 consecutive appearances, 2007-2010, with a 12-4 record.

[Brian Hamilton]

I'll just mention that it is also difficult to compare an 8 team conference to one with 10 (now 11 and soon to be 12).  Looking at the bottom 3 of eleven teams can be very different than looking at the bottom 3 of eight teams.  It is a lot harder to have all 11 teams be highly competitive.  Just my thoughts and opinion on the matter.

[algernon]

algernon - Guilford's made 4 consecutive appearances, 2007-2010, with a 12-4 record.

Thanks for the correction.  I'm counting on others to help me get it right and have modified the original post.

[algernon]

Over the past 10 years, the ODAC and the CCIW have both sent 6 different teams into the NCAA Tournament.

The ODAC has sent 22 teams to the NCAAs, while the CCIW has sent 19 teams.  Is there any conference that has sent as many as 22 teams into the tournament over the past 10 years?  The WIAC?  The NESCAC?  The UAA?

[algernon]

Another question I might find the time to research is the number of Final Four teams in 2001-2010 ....  The ODAC has had 6 teams in the Final Four in the 10-year period (2003 Tigers, 2006 Marlins, 2007 Marlins, 2009 Quakers, 2010 Quakers, 2010 Yellow Jackets).  It's possible that the ODAC leads the nation in the number of teams in the Final Four over the last 10 years, although I wouldn't bet against the idea that the number from the NESCAC, the UAA, or the WIAC is even more.

[Titan Q]

Another question I might find the time to research is the number of Final Four teams in 2001-2010 ....  The ODAC has had 6 teams in the Final Four in the 10-year period (2003 Tigers, 2006 Marlins, 2007 Marlins, 2009 Quakers, 2010 Quakers, 2010 Yellow Jackets).  It's possible that the ODAC leads the nation in the number of teams in the Final Four over the last 10 years, although I wouldn't bet against the idea that the number from the NESCAC, the UAA, or the WIAC is even more.

I have updated this on another board each year.  It's not the last 10 years, but rather the "Salem era"...

NCAA Division III Final Four Appearances - Salem Era (1994-95 through 2009-10)
Williams: 5 (1997, 1998, 2003, 2004, 2010)
Amherst: 4 (2004, 2006, 2007, 2008)
Illinois Wesleyan: 4 (1996, 1997, 2001, 2006)
Franklin & Marshall: 3 (1996, 2000, 2009)
Hope: 3 (1996, 1998, 2008)   
UW-Platteville: 3 (1995, 1998, 1999)
UW-Stevens Point: 3 (2004, 2005, 2010)
Washington U: 3 (2007, 2008, 2009)
Calvin: 2 (2000, 2005)
Guilford: 2 (2009, 2010)
Hampden-Sydney: 2 (1999, 2003)
Rochester   : 2 (2002, 2005)
Rowan: 2 (1995, 1996)
Virginia Wesleyan: 2 (2006, 2006)
William Paterson: 2 (1999, 2001)
Wooster:    2 (2003, 2007)
Alvernia: 1 (1997)
Carthage: 1 (2002)
Catholic: 1 (2001)
Connecticut College: 1 (1999)
Elizabethtown: 1 (2002)
Gustavus Adolphus:   1 (2003)
John Carroll: 1 (2004)
Manchester: 1 (1995)
Nebraska Wesleyan: 1 (1997)
Ohio Northern: 1 (2001)
Otterbein: 1 (2002)
Randolph-Macon: 1 (2010)
Richard Stockton: 1 (2009)
Salem St: 1 (2000)
Trinity (CT): 1 (1995)   
UW-Eau Claire: 1 (2000)   
Ursinus: 1 (2008)
Wilkes: 1 (1997)
Wittenberg: 1 (2006)
York (Pa): 1 (2005)


Maybe someone with better D3boards.com formatting skills can "pretty it up" for me.

[Titan Q]

One one caution about using Final Four counts to make definitive assessments of one league vs another...remember that the road to Salem is very different depending on where you are in the D3 landscape.  For example, a post I made last year (and just updated with 2009-10 info)...

Not even factoring in the Sectionals (Rounds 3 & 4), it's telling to just look at Round 2 matchups to see how different the roads are in different parts of the country...

(D3hoops.com Top 25 ranking at the time of the game.)

CCIW 2nd Rounds
2009-10: Illinois Wesleyan vs #1 Wash U
2009-10: Wheaton vs #12 Texas-Dallas
2009-10: Carthage vs #20 Anderson
2008-09:  Wheaton vs #5 UW-Platteville
2007-08:  Augustana vs #11 Wash U (eventual national champ)
2006-07:  n/a
2005-06:  Illinois Wesleyan vs #15 UW-Whitewater
2005-06:  Augustana vs #19 UW-Stout
2004-05:  Illinois Wesleyan vs #12 Hanover
2003-04:  Illinois Wesleyan vs #2 Hanover
2002-03:  Illinois Wesleyan vs #2 Wash U
2001-02:  Carthage vs Hope
2000-01:  Illinois Wesleyan vs #12 Wartburg
2000-01:  Carthage vs #2 Wooster
2000-01:  Elmhurst vs #8 Wash U
1999-00:  Carthage vs #15 UW-Eau Claire         


NESCAC 2nd Rounds
2009-10: Williams vs Maine-Farmington
2009-10: Middlebury vs #24 Rhode Island
2008-09:  Middlebury vs Bridgewater State
2007-08:  Amherst vs John Jay
2006-07:  Amherst vs Widener
2005-06:  Amherst vs Hamilton
2005-06:  Tufts vs Cortland State
2004-05:  Amherst vs Springfield
2003-04:  Williams vs Salem State
2003-04:  Amherst vs Plymouth State
2003-04:  Trinity vs Brockport State
2002-03:  Williams vs Salem State
2002-03:  Amherst vs Southern Vermont
2001-02:  Amherst vs Western Connecticut
2001-02:  Williams vs Cazenovia
2001-02:  Trinity vs #8 Brockport State
2000-01:  Amherst vs Clark
1999-00: Williams vs Springfield
1999-00: Amherst vs #21 Salem State

[narch]

I'm not sure what you mean by student profiles or demographics, 78rmc, but I've looked at SAT scores for these various institutions, and a realignment of the conferences based upon that admission standard would look something like this:

ODAC:
Washington and Lee
Christopher Newport
Guilford
Randolph
Hampden-Sydney
Roanoke College
EMU
Randolph-Macon
Greensboro College

USA South:
Lynchburg
Emory & Henry
Bridgewater
Shenandoah
Methodist
North Carolina
Virginia Wesleyan
Averett
Ferrum

We'd have to bring CNU and Greensboro into the ODAC .... and then we'd move Lynchburg, Emory & Henry, Bridgewater, and Virginia Wesleyan to the U.S.A. South.  Of course, we'd have to prevent Shenandoah from joining the ODAC, too.

i'm late to the party on this one, but i'll throw in my $.02

in this hypothetical scenario, i'm not sure why greensboro college would be considered a better fit for the odac academically than methodist - mu has a higher average gpa, higher average sat, admits a lower percentage of applicants and the middle 50%'s are all higher at mu - adittionally, mu brings in a class which is almost twice as large as that which greensboro enrolls (469 vs. 241 in 2009) - the top 1/2 of the class at mu would easily outpace the gc class - in my opinion, methodist is every bit as good a fit for the odac (admissions standards-wise) as shenandoah, vwc, ehc, lynchburg, bridgewater....possibly even guilford (mu's admissions #'s are closer to guilford's than guilford's are to hsc, rmc and randolph)

i agree, the one school that really doesn't fit on any level is w&l, but i'm sure the odac schools are more than happy to have them

and you won't get any argument from me if you want the public school (cnu) in your conference

[algernon]

Thanks for the data, Titan Q.  The following is based on the information you've provided.

In the past decade, 2001-2010, there are 11 conferences in Division III that have accounted for 38 of the 40 Final Four participants:

NESCAC -7 - Williams (2003, 2004, 2010); Amherst (2004, 2006, 2007, 2008)

ODAC - 6 - Hampden-Sydney (2003); Virginia Wesleyan (2006, 2007); Guilford (2009, 2010); Randolph-Macon (2010)

UAA - 5 - Rochester (2002, 2005); Washington U (2007, 2008, 2009)

CCIW - 3 - Illinois Wesleyan (2001, 2006); Carthage (2002)

NCAC - 3 - Wooster (2003, 2007); Wittenberg (2006)

OAC - 3 - Ohio Northern (2001); Otterbein (2002); John Carroll (2004)

WIAC: 3 - UW-Stevens Point (2004, 2005, 2010)

CAC - 2 - Catholic (2001); York (2005)

CC - 2 - Ursinus (2008); Franklin & Marshall (2009)

NJAC - 2 - William Paterson (2001); Richard Stockton (2009)

MIAA - 2 - Calvin (2005); Hope (2008)

Elizabethtown (2002)
Gustavus Adolphus (2003)

[Mr. Ypsi]

Algernon, note that not all FF appearances are created equal - some teams consistently have an easier path than others.  The West region, for example, has been the 'Bracket of Death' several times in recent years, with an outright majority of top ten teams in the final regular season poll all clustered in the same quarter of the bracket.  (I don't recall the precise numbers, but a couple of years ago something like the #1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 10 teams were all in the same sectional!  ANY of those teams would have been the favorite in the sectional Amherst emerged from.)  The CCIW and WIAC (plus WashU) are generally all trying for the same FF slot.  Both my memory and the years they made it suggest to me that IWU, Carthage, UWSP, WashU (and GA in 2003) all came from the same sectional.

[algernon]

Algernon, note that not all FF appearances are created equal - some teams consistently have an easier path than others.  The West region, for example, has been the 'Bracket of Death' several times in recent years, with an outright majority of top ten teams in the final regular season poll all clustered in the same quarter of the bracket.  (I don't recall the precise numbers, but a couple of years ago something like the #1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 10 teams were all in the same sectional!  ANY of those teams would have been the favorite in the sectional Amherst emerged from.)  The CCIW and WIAC (plus WashU) are generally all trying for the same FF slot.  Both my memory and the years they made it suggest to me that IWU, Carthage, UWSP, WashU (and GA in 2003) all came from the same sectional.

Yes, it's usually true that not all brackets are created equal.  Most notably, the "northeast bracket" often seems to be weak, with the exception of the NESCAC contender.

It's because of the strength of the CCIW and WIAC that those of us who are Tiger fans have such fond memories of the 2003 sectional at Randolph-Macon, when Hampden-Sydney defeated the CCIW's Illinois Wesleyan in the Sweet Sixteen and the WIAC's UW-Oshkosh in the Elite Eight ....