MBB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[Tigerfan]

The VWC image as the "thugs" has lately been a bit of self-promotion.  My esteemed colleague, JWW, has kept the term alive for the last year or more.   The warmup gear of Coach Doino during his playing days also played a role in the image: a football jersey and gold chain, as I recall.   They're the ODAC champs, so it appears to work for them.   

[steelyglen]

JWW is correct in that the Virginia Wesleyan stereotype has been discussed for years on this board.  The term "thugs froim the beach" may have been voiced in other ways over the years but the theme has been pretty constant. I first heard of it during the Jason Nickerson ('95-'98) years. That group had a reputation of playing hard and "playing" hard, if you get my drift. This meant as no slight to any of that group, just the reputation that was floating out there. It peaked for me on a trip to Wesleyan in the old high school gym. David Doino came out for pre-warm-ups in a football jersey (NY Giants I believe) his freshman year, had plenty of bling around his neck and a toothpick in his mouth. Now David was a thick individual with jet black hair sorta "slicked back" and an "Italian" look. David also possessed a certain swagger that rubbed off on his teammates. Now again, I mean no disrespect to David when descrbing him. I understand that he is a helluva nice young man and obviously was was a standout performer in this league. A certain former ODAC POY has had nothing but nice things to say about David over the years. Just trying to paint a picture here... We had a good chuckle about and the Marlins proceeded to hand BC their lunch that day. My point...I don't think I was the only one to notice that day or other days that were probably similar. First impressions, while often wrong are everlasting!

I do feel that certain ODAC schools present an "elitist" personna and when other schools/players don't fit that streotype then adjectives like "thug" are bound to pop up. Just kids being kids...  trying to make their way and find their mark in this world.

FWIW I like Virginia Wesleyan College. Dave Macedo's predecessor, Terry Butterfield was a first class individual and a fine small college basketball coach. Don Birmingham, Butterfield's assistant was likewise first rate and a hard working assistant. I am sure that Dave Macedo fits right into that group. Besides I think we're all just a little jealous that these guys could/can step outside of their campus doors and wade in the Atlantic...count me in that group!

[eagleslam]

hasanova...

You're right.  Has Ben Strong made a case for being 1st Team?  Yes.  Will he get it?  Most likely.  Will I understand why the coaches voted him on?  Yes.  Would I agree with it?  Obviously, no.

As of games through Sunday, he leads in the ODAC in scoring, is second in FG%, and is second in blocks.  Earlier you had made the observation that nearly every league, at any level, would vote the player who leads their league in scoring to the 1st Team, which I agreed with.  That doesn't mean I think those guys should have made their 1st Team, either, though.  Not that you took my agreement with you that way.  But, if that is the case, why doesn't the country's leading scorer make 1st Team All-American often?  This year, Adam Morrison in Gonzaga will, and should, but not because of a bunch of points.

As for his FG%, like you said, it's mainly lay-ups, dunks, or short hook shots.  I have no problem with that, because that is his game.  

As for his blocks, he is sceond, and he does not even average 2 per game.  Again, he probably changes the mindset and alters shots, but I would think at 6-10, he could block 2 every game standing flat footed.  

As for his rebounding, he is T-11th, with Drew Prehmus.  He gets the same amount of rebounds as a 6-5 kid.  With his size, he should be in the top 5 in scoring, rebounding, FG%, and blocks.  He is at least 2 inches taller than everyone else in the league.  Most players he holds at least a 4 inch advantage over.  Am I penalizing him for his height?  Maybe.  All I can say is that I would think any player who is 6-10 with the same stats should not be on 1st team.  His lack of rebounding, and since you brought it up, blocks, just makes it tough for me to consider him.

Please understand, I don't believe you were trying to start another discussion over this.  You stated your point of view to coopersharpe, and I was merely doing the same.

[hasanova]

hasanova...

You're right.  Has Ben Strong made a case for being 1st Team?  Yes.  Will he get it?  Most likely.  Will I understand why the coaches voted him on?  Yes.  Would I agree with it?  Obviously, no.

As of games through Sunday, he leads in the ODAC in scoring, is second in FG%, and is second in blocks.  Earlier you had made the observation that nearly every league, at any level, would vote the player who leads their league in scoring to the 1st Team, which I agreed with.  That doesn't mean I think those guys should have made their 1st Team, either, though.  Not that you took my agreement with you that way.  But, if that is the case, why doesn't the country's leading scorer make 1st Team All-American often?  This year, Adam Morrison in Gonzaga will, and should, but not because of a bunch of points.

As for his FG%, like you said, it's mainly lay-ups, dunks, or short hook shots.  I have no problem with that, because that is his game.  

As for his blocks, he is sceond, and he does not even average 2 per game.  Again, he probably changes the mindset and alters shots, but I would think at 6-10, he could block 2 every game standing flat footed.  

As for his rebounding, he is T-11th, with Drew Prehmus.  He gets the same amount of rebounds as a 6-5 kid.  With his size, he should be in the top 5 in scoring, rebounding, FG%, and blocks.  He is at least 2 inches taller than everyone else in the league.  Most players he holds at least a 4 inch advantage over.  Am I penalizing him for his height?  Maybe.  All I can say is that I would think any player who is 6-10 with the same stats should not be on 1st team.  His lack of rebounding, and since you brought it up, blocks, just makes it tough for me to consider him.

Please understand, I don't believe you were trying to start another discussion over this.  You stated your point of view to coopersharpe, and I was merely doing the same.

Eagleslam, you're right, I wasn't trying to start anything.    I understand your points and think they have merit.  Should he have more blocks? - maybe, but he is #2 in the league.  Should he have a high shooting percentage at 6'10"? - yes and he does.   While following the recruiting of my nephew a few years ago, I learned a lot about what coaches at different levels are watching.  My nephew is 6'7", has a great all-around game and his HS team won the NC 1A state championship, but he is a few inches too short and a step too slow to play in a major college frontcourt.  With this in mind, there are obviously some reasons why Ben Strong,  at 6'10," is playing DIII instead of DI. For one thing, he was very thin at the start of his freshman year, but has added some weight.  He is, however, a very competent DIII player and that's the arena in which he is being judged by me.  Watch him play when he visits BC or EMU in your area and then give me your assessment.  I respect your opinion, but I personally don't see how he cannot be First Team All-ODAC if he maintains the stats he has now AND Guilford continues to win in the conference.  Peace.

By the way - Go Quakers versus the Tigers tomorrow night! 

[eagleslam]

hasanova...

How well a player's team does is of no importance to me when I consider who should be on the 1st Team, although I know a lot of people put a lot of stock into it.  The ODAC Tournament is a team award.  All-ODAC is an individual award.  Just out of curiousity, if he led the league in scoring, but played on an 0-18 team, would you consider him 1st Team material?  I can honestly say if he led in scoring, and was top 5 in rebounding, I'd put him on the first team, even if Guilford never won an ODAC game.

Like you said, he is #2 in blocks.  But I do not think it is that impressive.  If he averaged 5 a game and was #2, that's saying something, for him and the guy ahead of him.  But less than 2 a game, and he is #2 in the league?  High ranking, yes.  High quantity?  No.

[jdubyadubya]

It was a New York Giants tee shirt...the doinos are huge Giants fans.

[mybleedinghands]

From the two times I've seen Ben Strong play this year, I thought he had a very good touch on his short jump shots. Surprisingly good touch on his shot actually. We double teamed him and applied more pressure on him the second time, which limited his scoring opportunities, but he did a good job of not getting any turnovers (had zero), but he ended up forcing up some not so intelligent shots, as can be seen in his 5-14 shooting performance. Other than forcing up some shots, he handled the pressure well by kicking the ball back out to someone on the perimeter, actually suprised he didn't get a couple assists. He did have 9 boards against us, but most teams normally do rebound pretty well against us (we've only outrebounded our opponents 4 times in 17 games), Jordon Coston even got 6 boards against us! Also, look at his foul numbers, he only has 11 fouls in 10 conference games! For a big man that is very low, and considering he blocks and alters a lot of shots, his low foul numbers are even more amazing. In confernece games he even has an equal amount of assists as he has fouls! He does lead the conference in scoring, and he does it in only 27.6 minutes a game. Most of the other potential first-teamers score less than him and do it in about 4-5 more minutes than Strong. If Strong were to play 32 minutes a game like these guys, he'd be averaging 24 points. 6.7 boards (which would put him at 9th place), and 2 blocks a game (which would have him at second, but only .09 behind hawley).

[steelyglen]

Might have been NY Giants J-dub but it WAS a football jersey...no T-shirt that day...Great stuff. I'll edit my earlier post so the Doinos don't have to have the Jets associated with their name...

[jdubyadubya]

Steely - I'm just having a little fun. There's nothing wrong with just having a little fun, is there?

[jdubyadubya]

Congratulations to the Virginia Wesleyan Marlins who rejoin the Top 25 this week.

[steelyglen]

J-Dub...I'm all about a little fun...but I learned many years ago NOT to associate the Jets to Giants fans and vice versa...just trying to keep the earth on its axis! 

[justafan02]

The Batten Center hasn't been the same since the chants of "Dweeeeeeeennnn  Ohhhhhh"   "Dweeeeeeeenn  Ohhhhh"  left two years ago. (Doino for those who can't hear me chanting from my computer.)

[hasanova]

hasanova...

How well a player's team does is of no importance to me when I consider who should be on the 1st Team, although I know a lot of people put a lot of stock into it.  The ODAC Tournament is a team award.  All-ODAC is an individual award.  Just out of curiousity, if he led the league in scoring, but played on an 0-18 team, would you consider him 1st Team material?  I can honestly say if he led in scoring, and was top 5 in rebounding, I'd put him on the first team, even if Guilford never won an ODAC game.

Like you said, he is #2 in blocks.  But I do not think it is that impressive.  If he averaged 5 a game and was #2, that's saying something, for him and the guy ahead of him.  But less than 2 a game, and he is #2 in the league?  High ranking, yes.  High quantity?  No.

Eagleslam, I think team success has some bearing on whether a player is All-Conference or not, but I do agree it should primarily be an individual award.  With that said, however, I think it would be very difficult for a good scorer from an 0-18 team to be first team.  Maybe that's wrong, but the first team players usually come from the top five teams (especially in a ten team league such as the ODAC).  I think I've pretty much exhausted this subject from my point of view, so I'll just wait to see how the coaches vote at the end of the year.    Give me your assessment after you've seen Guilford and Ben Strong play in a couple of weeks - I'll be interested to see what you think.

[algernon]

I think all would agree that stats only partially capture the quality of an individual's game.  I'm reminded that, in 2000, 4 of the 10 All-ODAC players were HSC Tigers, although this wouldn't have been the case if the coaches had based their decision on stats alone.  The four Tigers -- Grimes, Fox, Harris, and Jirak -- were chosen because of the quality of their overall court performance, which resulted in a 24-0 record at the end of the regular season.

[tigerfanalso]

All conference selection should be based on talent; talent is not judged by stats.
All Star performers on really good teams do not always have great stats due to the team concept. The really good HSC and RMC  teams of the recent past indicate same. Those teams had so many go do guys that not one or two players were forced to carry the load. The reason they had such good teams is obvious, they had alot of really good players and no opposing team could double team as a result; which ever player had the hot hand or the miss match in any one particular game got the ball but that changed with each game so no one player scored an abundament amount of points over the course of the year. In fact the HSC 2003 team had four players that scored over 1000 points during their four year career. Had the ball not been so evenly distributed, god only knows how many Monroe could have scored; same with Mills at RMC.