MBB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[allsky7]

allsky7: I didn't write them... only solicited responses and compiled them. The VA Wes Preview was written by a VA Wes fan, I would assume, so that means that it's going to have wording like that in it. A sharp neutral fan should be able to see things like that analyze them based on the evidence, and make their own decisions about what happened.

Funny how two people can see the same thing and interpret it so differently.

allsky7 - It's called hermeneutics.  Named for Hermes and originally applied to biblical interpretation, it certainly applies to sports as well!  lol

     Thanks Hasa!!  Must have missed that in the middle of all the humanities courses I somehow managed to survive at Murvall. 
     And by the way....HOW BOUT THEM QUAKERS BABY?!?!? As disappointed as I am about the Scots and Tigers losing, I am tickled that GC is playing so well.  The Scots had another great season and certainly no shame in losing to an outstanding Choctaw team. Ditto for the Tigers. They put together a great run and battled a great VWC team admirably.  Wish I could get down to Va. Beach this weekend. I think the matchups have the potential  to be instant classics. I also think the survivor has a real chance to win it all in Salem.

[hasanova]

allsky7: I didn't write them... only solicited responses and compiled them. The VA Wes Preview was written by a VA Wes fan, I would assume, so that means that it's going to have wording like that in it. A sharp neutral fan should be able to see things like that analyze them based on the evidence, and make their own decisions about what happened.

Funny how two people can see the same thing and interpret it so differently.

allsky7 - It's called hermeneutics.  Named for Hermes and originally applied to biblical interpretation, it certainly applies to sports as well!  lol

     Thanks Hasa!!  Must have missed that in the middle of all the humanities courses I somehow managed to survive at Murvall. 
     And by the way....HOW BOUT THEM QUAKERS BABY?!?!? As disappointed as I am about the Scots and Tigers losing, I am tickled that GC is playing so well.  The Scots had another great season and certainly no shame in losing to an outstanding Choctaw team. Ditto for the Tigers. They put together a great run and battled a great VWC team admirably.  Wish I could get down to Va. Beach this weekend. I think the matchups have the potential  to be instant classics. I also think the survivor has a real chance to win it all in Salem.

Yeah, it's been great!  Actually, I think the loss to BC has really motivated this team to play all out every game.  It might not be enough to get the Quakers to Salem, but so far so good!  I think this weekend's foursome at VWC is an awesome bunch and no matter which team survives, I think they have a good shot in Salem.  Not sure if I can make it to Virginia Beach, but I'll certainly be in Salem if Guilford's there!  Go Quakers!  Go Marlins! 

[Pat Coleman]

Bottom half of the ODAC against the bottom half of the CCIW:

2002-03:
Emory & Henry (8-10 in ODAC) 89, Elmhurst (6-8 in CCIW) 78
2003-04:
North Central (5-9 in CCIW) 79, Guilford (11-7 in ODAC) 73
North Central (5-9 in CCIW) 84, Roanoke (6-12 in ODAC) 74

Bottom half of the ODAC against the bottom half of the WIAC:

2003-04:
UW-Stout (8-8 in WIAC) 71, Lynchburg (5-13 in ODAC) 66
2004-05:
Guilford (9-9 in ODAC) 74, UW-La Crosse (4-12 in WIAC) 57
2006-07:
Randolph-Macon (9-9 in ODAC) 68, UW Platteville (8-8 in WIAC) 64

Bottom half of the ODAC against the bottom half of the UAA:

2004-05:
Guilford (9-9 in ODAC) 85, Case Western (1-13 in UAA) 82
Emory (6-8 in UAA) 73, Lynchburg (8-10 in ODAC) 59
Emory (6-8 in UAA) 90, Washington & Lee (0-18 in ODAC) 77
2005-06:
Emory (4-10 in UAA) 76, Washington & Lee (4-14 in ODAC) 71
2006-07:
Washington & Lee (6-12 in ODAC) 69, Emory (2-12 in UAA) 57

You are the king of small samples as always.

[Ralph Turner]

allsky7: I didn't write them... only solicited responses and compiled them. The VA Wes Preview was written by a VA Wes fan, I would assume, so that means that it's going to have wording like that in it. A sharp neutral fan should be able to see things like that analyze them based on the evidence, and make their own decisions about what happened.

Funny how two people can see the same thing and interpret it so differently.

allsky7 - It's called hermeneutics.  Named for Hermes and originally applied to biblical interpretation, it certainly applies to sports as well!  lol

     Thanks Hasa!!  Must have missed that in the middle of all the humanities courses I somehow managed to survive at Murvall. 
     And by the way....HOW BOUT THEM QUAKERS BABY?!?!? As disappointed as I am about the Scots and Tigers losing, I am tickled that GC is playing so well.  The Scots had another great season and certainly no shame in losing to an outstanding Choctaw team. Ditto for the Tigers. They put together a great run and battled a great VWC team admirably.  Wish I could get down to Va. Beach this weekend. I think the matchups have the potential  to be instant classics. I also think the survivor has a real chance to win it all in Salem.

Yeah, it's been great!  Actually, I think the loss to BC has really motivated this team to play all out every game.  It might not be enough to get the Quakers to Salem, but so far so good!  I think this weekend's foursome at VWC is an awesome bunch and no matter which team survives, I think they have a good shot in Salem.  Not sure if I can make it to Virginia Beach, but I'll certainly be in Salem if Guilford's there!  Go Quakers!  Go Marlins! 

That is what I love about this board...scholarly sports talk.

Next topic...dianetics!    8)

[Mr. Ypsi]

allsky7: I didn't write them... only solicited responses and compiled them. The VA Wes Preview was written by a VA Wes fan, I would assume, so that means that it's going to have wording like that in it. A sharp neutral fan should be able to see things like that analyze them based on the evidence, and make their own decisions about what happened.

Funny how two people can see the same thing and interpret it so differently.

allsky7 - It's called hermeneutics.  Named for Hermes and originally applied to biblical interpretation, it certainly applies to sports as well!  lol

     Thanks Hasa!!  Must have missed that in the middle of all the humanities courses I somehow managed to survive at Murvall. 
     And by the way....HOW BOUT THEM QUAKERS BABY?!?!? As disappointed as I am about the Scots and Tigers losing, I am tickled that GC is playing so well.  The Scots had another great season and certainly no shame in losing to an outstanding Choctaw team. Ditto for the Tigers. They put together a great run and battled a great VWC team admirably.  Wish I could get down to Va. Beach this weekend. I think the matchups have the potential  to be instant classics. I also think the survivor has a real chance to win it all in Salem.

Yeah, it's been great!  Actually, I think the loss to BC has really motivated this team to play all out every game.  It might not be enough to get the Quakers to Salem, but so far so good!  I think this weekend's foursome at VWC is an awesome bunch and no matter which team survives, I think they have a good shot in Salem.  Not sure if I can make it to Virginia Beach, but I'll certainly be in Salem if Guilford's there!  Go Quakers!  Go Marlins! 

That is what I love about this board...scholarly sports talk.

Next topic...dianetics!    8)

I thought you said 'scholarly'!

[narch]

i'm usually with you odac guys when it comes to attacks from outside regions, but i can't drink the koolaid this go 'round

the 7 usasac teams combined for an 11-10 record vs. the odac this year (i'll take a look at previous years later) - the usasac teams had a combined 42-42 (.500) conference record, while the odac teams playing them combined to go 213-173 (.551) in the odac - obviously, the teams at the top of the odac benefit greatly from playing teams at the bottom of the odac

here is a breakdown of the usasac vs. odac
au: 9-3 usasac, 4-2 odac, odac opp 68-48 (.586)
gboro: 9-3 usasac, 2-1 odac, odac opp 24-30 (.444)
cnu: 7-5 usasac, 1-1 odac, odac opp 26-10 (.722)
mu: 6-6 usasac, 1-2 odac, odac opp 41-13 (.759)
fc: 5-7 usasac, 1-2 odac, odac opp 16-38 (.296)
ncwc: 5-7 usasac, 0-1 odac, odac opp 10-8 (.556)
su: 1-11 usasac, 2-1 odac, odac opp 28-26 (.519)

...that's right folks, the last place usasac team had one more win in 3 odac games than they did in 12 usasac games, including a victory over the 4th place odac team, and odac tournament champion

i agree that the odac is very good at the top, but when you take it all the way down to the bottom, it's just an above average conference, in my opinion

ok...so i did some research on past seasons, and it seems that the usasac fared significantly better against the odac this season than in the past

02-03: 5-9
03-04: 3-12
04-05: 6-11
05-06: 6-12

maybe the usasac performance this year speaks more to the improvement of the usasac as a whole than the state of the odac?

[sludge]

allsky7: I didn't write them... only solicited responses and compiled them. The VA Wes Preview was written by a VA Wes fan, I would assume, so that means that it's going to have wording like that in it. A sharp neutral fan should be able to see things like that analyze them based on the evidence, and make their own decisions about what happened.

Funny how two people can see the same thing and interpret it so differently.

allsky7 - It's called hermeneutics.  Named for Hermes and originally applied to biblical interpretation, it certainly applies to sports as well!  lol

     Thanks Hasa!!  Must have missed that in the middle of all the humanities courses I somehow managed to survive at Murvall. 
     And by the way....HOW BOUT THEM QUAKERS BABY?!?!? As disappointed as I am about the Scots and Tigers losing, I am tickled that GC is playing so well.  The Scots had another great season and certainly no shame in losing to an outstanding Choctaw team. Ditto for the Tigers. They put together a great run and battled a great VWC team admirably.  Wish I could get down to Va. Beach this weekend. I think the matchups have the potential  to be instant classics. I also think the survivor has a real chance to win it all in Salem.

Yeah, it's been great!  Actually, I think the loss to BC has really motivated this team to play all out every game.  It might not be enough to get the Quakers to Salem, but so far so good!  I think this weekend's foursome at VWC is an awesome bunch and no matter which team survives, I think they have a good shot in Salem.  Not sure if I can make it to Virginia Beach, but I'll certainly be in Salem if Guilford's there!  Go Quakers!  Go Marlins! 

That is what I love about this board...scholarly sports talk.

Next topic...dianetics!    8)

I thought you said 'scholarly'!

Sure, we're talking about the basic problems of varying interpretations and their role in human communications.  And we're demonstrating it at the same time.  Quite scholarly.

[algernon]

Bottom half of the ODAC against the bottom half of the CCIW:

2002-03:
Emory & Henry (8-10 in ODAC) 89, Elmhurst (6-8 in CCIW) 78
2003-04:
North Central (5-9 in CCIW) 79, Guilford (11-7 in ODAC) 73
North Central (5-9 in CCIW) 84, Roanoke (6-12 in ODAC) 74

Bottom half of the ODAC against the bottom half of the WIAC:

2003-04:
UW-Stout (8-8 in WIAC) 71, Lynchburg (5-13 in ODAC) 66
2004-05:
Guilford (9-9 in ODAC) 74, UW-La Crosse (4-12 in WIAC) 57
2006-07:
Randolph-Macon (9-9 in ODAC) 68, UW Platteville (8-8 in WIAC) 64

Bottom half of the ODAC against the bottom half of the UAA:

2004-05:
Guilford (9-9 in ODAC) 85, Case Western (1-13 in UAA) 82
Emory (6-8 in UAA) 73, Lynchburg (8-10 in ODAC) 59
Emory (6-8 in UAA) 90, Washington & Lee (0-18 in ODAC) 77
2005-06:
Emory (4-10 in UAA) 76, Washington & Lee (4-14 in ODAC) 71
2006-07:
Washington & Lee (6-12 in ODAC) 69, Emory (2-12 in UAA) 57

You are the king of small samples as always.

The games I've cited are not a sample at all.  In fact, they are ALL of the games played between the "bottom half" of these conferences during the past 5 years.

I don't know what could be more relevant in response to the unsupported personal opinion that the "bottom half of the ODAC could not come close to competing against the bottom half of the CCIW, WIAC, or UAA."

But your snide comment comes as no surprise.

[Pat Coleman]

I understand that this is all the data you possess. However, that doesn't preclude it from being a small sample of the vast number of games played by the ODAC every season.

Massey ranks the ODAC No. 9 this year. That seems fairly reasonable.

Not drinking the kool-aid either, sorry. If that's snide, so be it. It's also accurate.

[algernon]

the 7 usasac teams combined for an 11-10 record vs. the odac this year

ok...so i did some research on past seasons, and it seems that the usasac fared significantly better against the odac this season than in the past

02-03: 5-9
03-04: 3-12
04-05: 6-11
05-06: 6-12

maybe the usasac performance this year speaks more to the improvement of the usasac as a whole than the state of the odac?

narch .... Although I've not included all your data in my quote of your post, I do appreciate the research you did and it backs up my sense that the USA South did very well against the ODAC this year .... much better than in past years.  I think that the USA South's performance against the ODAC this year speaks more to the improvement of the USA South, as I think the ODAC is as good as it has ever been right now.

[algernon]

Pat .... It's true that the "games between the bottoms" are a small sample of the vast number of games played by the ODAC every season.  However, how the bottom half of the ODAC has played against the bottom half of the CCIW, WIAC, and UAA is all that seems truly relevant to the question of how the bottom half of the ODAC could do against the bottom half of the CCIW, WIAC, and UAA.  It's actual data that directly speaks to the question.

That Massey ranks the ODAC as #9 is interesting .... and I assume that Massey's ranking is reasonably valid, given the various references that have been made to it, even though I don't know anything about it's methodology (yet).  The ODAC may be among the second 5 conferences, not the first 5 conferences, in terms of it's success, but I wonder how close are all of the Top Ten conferences in Massey's ranking.

[Pat Coleman]

My point is that that a couple games a year just doesn't get it done, not the way a round-robin would. That's why conferences don't base a title or seeding on five or six games in a season. A couple games between a couple of teams doesn't rise to that level for me and while it's all there is, it can't be passed off as an absolute refutation of perception.

I think you know that and are trying to spin the ODAC into a better light. I'm standing up for proper perspective when using data.

There seems to be a large dropoff after No. 4, No. 5 and No. 9, for what it's worth. I suspect the NESCAC suffers from the weak competition around it.

Rk   Conf   Tms   W   L   Rating   Power   Off   Def   HA   Parity
1   Wisconsin IAC   9   57   21   0.274   5.51   73.22   4.47   2.06   0.4233
2   Ill & Wisc   8   66   23   0.241   4.78   74.66   2.32   2.57   0.6649
3   Ohio AC   10   51   22   0.103   1.90   72.64   1.46   2.68   0.6084
4   University AA   8   73   25   0.089   1.72   71.72   2.19   3.57   0.5613
5   Heartland CAC   9   55   27   0.040   0.66   71.30   1.55   3.00   0.6872
6   Northwest   9   47   33   -0.004   -0.07   73.42   -1.30   4.13   0.6496
7   Iowa IAC   9   44   37   -0.055   -1.01   70.59   0.59   4.77   0.5426
8   Midwest   10   30   39   -0.058   -1.25   72.57   -1.63   2.95   0.4751
9   Old Dominion AC   10   48   22   -0.063   -1.41   73.89   -3.11   2.61   0.4807
10   NE Smalls   10   101   38   -0.103   -2.14   70.71   -0.66   3.05   0.5558

[balls a dunkin]

This game should be an entertaining one....... MC is a talented team as is VWC...... both teams will have their hands full and it will be a packed house...... this will be a fun one..... can't wait till Friday!!!!

should be if they allow BOTH fans into the gym

if i am not mistaken my high school gym sat more than 2000

[Mr. Ypsi]

Pat, I've never studied the Massey in any detail, but the drop-off from 2 to 3 seems much larger than after 4, 5, or 9 - am I not looking at the relevant numbers?

Algernon, you're right, Pat's wrong, as far as 'sample' - you provided (as far as I know) ALL of the games that fit the defined parameter.  But two things: 1) Pat's right that the data set (even if the whole population, rather than a sample) is too small to carry much meaning, and 2) even as small as it is, it contains 'apples and oranges' - roughly half of the conference records are reasonably comparable, but 9-9 vs 1-13?  9-9 vs 4-12?  And was Guilford really bottom half at 11-7?  By the time only meaningful comparisons are made (teams with similar standing and records), the data set is, alas, vanishingly small.  I appreciate your efforts, but I just don't think this approach is going to yield much help towards the question. 

[David Collinge]

I think this discussion has gone full circle, back to a point I made in a post quite near the beginning of the conversation:

Another problem is the dearth of head-to-head results on which to base an evaluation.  If I want to compare the NCAC with the ODAC, how do I go about doing so?  Do I compare Wooster or Wittenberg to Hampden-Sydney or Virginia Wesleyan?  They've rarely played.  Do I compare Oberlin and Hiram to Lynchburg and W&L (no offense intended)?  They've rarely played.  Do I compare the total NCAC vs. ODAC results?  Okay, Wooster beat the crap out of E&H last year, so I guess we're better than you.  Nyah nyah.    Oh wait, W&L beat Oberlin and Denison this year, so I guess you're better than us now.  Rats. 

Even if there were head-to-head matchups to evaluate, such as the ODAC and USASAC seem to have, is it valid to use these results to praise or damn an entire conference?  Sure, if Oberlin played HSC every year and routinely won, I think you could conclude that the NCAC is better than the ODAC.  But what result if Ohio Wesleyan and Virginia Wesleyan played every year--would the result tell you which conference is better, or just which team?  Heck, even that's not always correct--who here thinks Bridgewater is really a better team than Guilford?

If you use game results, there's not enough data, and it's not reliable enough on which to base a conclusion about the relative strength of conferences.  If you use Massey, you're limited in your conclusions by the lack of knowledge of what goes into his calculations (which I believe are proprietary, aren't they?)  This sort of debate will never rise above the level of conjecture.