MBB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[justafan02]

I am really in awe of the effort that many of you have put into ripping VWC since the championship game.  Please allow this to act as my brief rebuttal to some of the criticism.

1.  Die hard fan - How can you begin to say "I'm not willing to cast stones" when that is all that you have done.  If you believe that the VWC program is developing players who lack character, sportsmanship or integrity I will most certainly challenge you on that point.   To make the damaging and hurtful  accusations (or insinuations) that you have made about the VWC players/program due to a few minor incidents is certainly irresponsible on your part.  I would expect more from someone who is so self-aware of their own flaws.  There are many components of "character" Diehardfan.  Apparently Tae Kwon Do doesn't teach compassion or understanding.  I don't think that I am speaking out of turn when I say that there will not be any hard feelings if you boycott all VWC games from now on as watching them effects your delicate sensibilities.

2. Vigothepathetic- I will take a "ridiculous" Coach Macedo any day of the week.  Besides being an excellent basketball coach (I'll let his record speak for itself) and mentor for young men, I know that he has the utmost respect from his peers in the ODAC. 

3. Algernon- I find it hard to believe that a few of VWC's players not shaking hands after a tough loss amounts to a "major" mistake.   I just assume that you use a different criteria for labeling your mistakes in life.  Minor then major...colossal or extraordinary above that, topped off with stupendous.  So a "major" mistake really isn't that bad?

4. Jacketlawyer - I really don't have anything negative to say to you...I usually like most of your posts.  This is very surprising to me b/c you went to RMC.   One question, do all Maconites (anyone from RMC) sleep in their blue blazers? (BTW...this was my sad attempt to be humorous...im sorry jacketlawyer)

After thinking about not posting on this topic again....I must say...this may have been the best post I have ever read.  Thank you

[allsky7]

I am really in awe of the effort that many of you have put into ripping VWC since the championship game.  Please allow this to act as my brief rebuttal to some of the criticism.

1.  Die hard fan - How can you begin to say "I'm not willing to cast stones" when that is all that you have done.  If you believe that the VWC program is developing players who lack character, sportsmanship or integrity I will most certainly challenge you on that point.   To make the damaging and hurtful  accusations (or insinuations) that you have made about the VWC players/program due to a few minor incidents is certainly irresponsible on your part.  I would expect more from someone who is so self-aware of their own flaws.  There are many components of "character" Diehardfan.  Apparently Tae Kwon Do doesn't teach compassion or understanding.  I don't think that I am speaking out of turn when I say that there will not be any hard feelings if you boycott all VWC games from now on as watching them effects your delicate sensibilities.

2. Vigothepathetic- I will take a "ridiculous" Coach Macedo any day of the week.  Besides being an excellent basketball coach (I'll let his record speak for itself) and mentor for young men, I know that he has the utmost respect from his peers in the ODAC. 

3. Algernon- I find it hard to believe that a few of VWC's players not shaking hands after a tough loss amounts to a "major" mistake.   I just assume that you use a different criteria for labeling your mistakes in life.  Minor then major...colossal or extraordinary above that, topped off with stupendous.  So a "major" mistake really isn't that bad?

4. Jacketlawyer - I really don't have anything negative to say to you...I usually like most of your posts.  This is very surprising to me b/c you went to RMC.   One question, do all Maconites (anyone from RMC) sleep in their blue blazers? (BTW...this was my sad attempt to be humorous...im sorry jacketlawyer)

After thinking about not posting on this topic again....I must say...this may have been the best post I have ever read.  Thank you

       MAN........ya'll are killing me!!!!    Sure do make it hard for a man to keep his word. I said I was done with this topic. Chinese water torture won't make me talk.   
     
       Ok everybody, repeat after me...I love VWC...The Marlins are our friend...I love VWC...The Marlins are our friend...I love VWC...The Marlins are our friend.   

[algernon]

Minor then major...colossal or extraordinary above that, topped off with stupendous.  So a "major" mistake really isn't that bad?

No .... it wasn't colossally, or extraordinarily, or even stupendously bad ... I just see the Marlins' failure to get up and shake hands with the Amherst players, who had come over to their bench, as very poor sportsmanship .... a simple mistake, and one that was easy to make under the circumstances, but also one that was major in the sense that they were on a national stage and it was a clear breach of good post-game sportsmanship.  It was their only failure, in terms of sportsmanship, and I'm sure that the coach and team w'll learn from it and do better in the future.

It's certainly not what I'll remember when I think about the Marlins' fabulous 2007 season.

[oldfish]

Algernon- I thank you for providing a fair assessment of the events following the championship game.   I think your last post captures how most people feel about the topic.  I would agree that it was a regrettable incident but that it doesn't reflect a character, integrity or sportsmanship crisis at VWC.


diehardfan- I have no problem with your belief that a flawed individual can and should expect more from themselves and those around them.  I don’t have a problem that you voiced this opinion with respect to the incident that occurred after the championship game.  However, I will always take issue with any insinuation that VWC, in general, lacks quality people of good character who exhibit sportsmanship and integrity. 

In the end, it’s just my opinion that none of us would want to be judged so harshly for what amounts to a very minor incident in the grand scope of things.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Jeez - I take a couple days break from the post ups and this room goes NUTS!!! 

I am not about to comment on the end of the game... since my sportsmanship beliefs and thoughts as a person who takes a lot of time out of my life to cover Division III Basketball will only piss you all off again! 

Back to my comments about Guilford next season... I see how many of you think Strickland is a player to watch. He better improve a lot in the off season. I saw him a bunch and he never impressed me. He was bailed out a number of times by one ref in the Sweet 16 game when he drove into the lane, was completely out of control, initiated contact, and threw up prayers - only answered by the ref! In other games, he didn't take good shots and he didn't make a lot. Finally, he also needs to control his emotions. There were several times I thought he was about to go over the line and one moment he did (though, no one saw it).

Dixon hit a BIG three pointer in the 2nd half of the Elite 8 game. He then promptly jawed something about the shot to Strickland. Strickland continued down the court and felt he had to say something (while down nearly 20). Dixon then litterly got in Strickland's ear and said a few more words. Strickland once again responded, and then as he got ready to set up on offense, he prompty threw an elbow into Dixon's ear. Neither guy was in the right... and the only reason Strickland didn't get called for a foul... was because of the unbelievable timing of Coach Polombo calling a time out. Strickland needs to keep his cool in those situations (and Dixon needs to not talk after big shots - actions are louder then words AND far more impressive).

As for Sanborn, I think having him and Strong in the game at the same time is a great idea. It actually allows Strong to play a #4 spot - which for a 6'11" guy in D3... is very impressive. However, I don't think having them together for an entire game is benefitual either. You have three options there... and changing it up all game long will throw other teams off.

Belkoski is certainly a talent at the #3. I would love to see him take a few more shots in games and be a threat outside and inside. By the way, he certainly did his best to grit it out in the 3 OT game... and then showed up in the Elite 8 game. He is going to be dangerous if left alone.

I could keep going on my thoughts about Guilford next season, but I won't - for now.

Final note, congrats to VWC on two incrediable seasons. Coach Macedo has shown that the Marlins are a team no one will take lightly in the years to come. They certainly lose a lot next season, but they will still be a very difficult team to beat... and near the top of the ODAC.

[diehardfan]

Jeez - I take a couple days break from the post ups and this room goes NUTS!!! 

It's all the nuts in the cookies. I can't help it.

I am not about to comment on the end of the game... since my sportsmanship beliefs and thoughts as a person who takes a lot of time out of my life to cover Division III Basketball will only piss you all off again! 

Thanks for your support!

[The Observation Deck]

I'll say this, too, since it doesn't appear this is going to die.

This is what I do--the name says it all. I read a lot of boards but rarely post unless I have an observation that needs to be made.

I think the conversation would end if the Virginia Wesleyan supporters would simply admit that this was a mistake, it was unfortunate, and move on. Unfortunately, there's far more excuse-making from those who have drunk the Marlin kool-aid (and by the way that does not sound tasty) and it merely prolongs the discussion.

We all know kids are kids. We all know losing is hard. Yet, somehow, other years the kids who lose manage to stand up and shake hands. This is the crux of the discussion.

It was a mistake.
It was unfortunate.
Admit it.
Move on.

Thanks from all of us who are forced to read the drivel from Norfolk-Virginia Beach.

[FortyFour]

The Observation Deck,

I don't recall a Marlin poster saying that the players' actions weren't a mistake.  I don't know where you get the idea that all we've done is make excuses.  If you read what I said, I said they players acted wrongly.  I think most of us were a little ticked that this incident became one giant Marlin-bashing exercise, which included much more topics than the post-game handshake (including things as trivial as pre-game warm-ups).  I felt the need to speak out against this because it crossed over into other realms outside of last weekend in Salem.  But, I guess if that equates to me drinking some "kool-aid," then by all means, pour me another glass, because I'll readily defend the Marlins against some of the crap that has been directed their way in the last week.

[The Observation Deck]

Normally, when one loses a National Championship game and are going for their second straight and lose, they are disappointed. They put up a valiant effort and came up short and were disappointed... even though they didn't shake hand no one was telling them not to. They were disappointed that they lost the game... its not like they had their backs turned... they were crying that they came up short..... 95% of college players who lost a national championship game and played their hearts out doing so cry after they lose.... Adam Morrison even cried like a baby DURING Gonzaga's loss to UCLA, and no one called him a bad sport so I don't think that we should be all over VWC for this... instead we should be congratulating them on representing the ODAC in the championship game for the 2nd straight season and wishing them good luck.... but then again when you're at the top there are always haters.

Excuses. And not sure what Morrison crying during the game has to do with not standing for a handshake after the game. Apples? Oranges? Anyone?

And yeah, so it's OK so long as they didn't have their backs turned? Huh?

Justafan02, I think you're exactly right.  Should the players have acknowledged and accepted the Amherst players' handshake? Absolutely!  But, this was the heat of the moment, and probably the most heartbreaking moment on the basketball court for many of these kids. 

Uh huh. And for other schools, NOT heartbreaking, apparently.

I find it hard to believe that a few of VWC's players not shaking hands after a tough loss amounts to a "major" mistake.   I just assume that you use a different criteria for labeling your mistakes in life.  Minor then major...colossal or extraordinary above that, topped off with stupendous.  So a "major" mistake really isn't that bad?

Major in that apparently everyone else who loses the national title game manages to not make this mistake.

Between that, and the cheerleading done by jww and justafan, it's obvious you VWC types are not letting this go or die.

[FortyFour]

Ok, I guess we differ on semantics, but whatever.  My point was that pretty much every VWC fan on here has said the players should have done the handshake...the point in my post was that while it wasn't the right thing to do, it's not that hard to understand their disappointment and the fact that they might not have been in the best state of mind at the time.  That was my point from the beginning, it was wrong, but things to happen to young men in situations like that.  I guess these kids aren't allowed to make mistakes.

I do take exception with some of the crap you have written.  Just what do you mean by the "kool-aid" and "VWC types?"  We are part of the VWC community, what do you expect us to do?  But, I guess if we voice support for our team, then what we write is merely "cheerleading" or "drivel." 

[The Observation Deck]

I guess it's OK to make mistakes, as long as people don't take offense to others pointing out that nobody else has managed to make that particular mistake.

But I just got into this to support die hard fan.

[FortyFour]

I don't care if people comment on a perceived lack of sportsmanship.  That's fine, and I think it should be pointed out.  Especially in this instance because I am familiar enough with VWC to know that things like this will probably not happen again.  I just think some of the extra-curricular criticisms were a little over-the-top (Balenga's trash talk, pre-game activities, etc.) and this whole incident morphed into a reason to bash VWC for anything one didn't care for...that was my beef.

[DeWayneCarter]

Normally, when one loses a National Championship game and are going for their second straight and lose, they are disappointed. They put up a valiant effort and came up short and were disappointed... even though they didn't shake hand no one was telling them not to. They were disappointed that they lost the game... its not like they had their backs turned... they were crying that they came up short..... 95% of college players who lost a national championship game and played their hearts out doing so cry after they lose.... Adam Morrison even cried like a baby DURING Gonzaga's loss to UCLA, and no one called him a bad sport so I don't think that we should be all over VWC for this... instead we should be congratulating them on representing the ODAC in the championship game for the 2nd straight season and wishing them good luck.... but then again when you're at the top there are always haters.

Excuses. And not sure what Morrison crying during the game has to do with not standing for a handshake after the game. Apples? Oranges? Anyone?

And yeah, so it's OK so long as they didn't have their backs turned? Huh?

Justafan02, I think you're exactly right.  Should the players have acknowledged and accepted the Amherst players' handshake? Absolutely!  But, this was the heat of the moment, and probably the most heartbreaking moment on the basketball court for many of these kids. 

Uh huh. And for other schools, NOT heartbreaking, apparently.

I find it hard to believe that a few of VWC's players not shaking hands after a tough loss amounts to a "major" mistake.   I just assume that you use a different criteria for labeling your mistakes in life.  Minor then major...colossal or extraordinary above that, topped off with stupendous.  So a "major" mistake really isn't that bad?

Major in that apparently everyone else who loses the national title game manages to not make this mistake.

Between that, and the cheerleading done by jww and justafan, it's obvious you VWC types are not letting this go or die.

My point was that VWC did the same thing that Adam Morrison did on ESPN... and afterwards no one called him a bad sport... they called him passionate about his game.... which VWC was

[The Observation Deck]

How is crying during the game the same as sitting on the bench when someone is shaking your hand? It didn't make sense the last time you said it and it doesn't make sense now. That's all.

FortyFour, I agree. I have only seeked to comment on this and not the other additional items that aren't related to the title game.

[hasanova]

Back to my comments about Guilford next season... I see how many of you think Strickland is a player to watch. He better improve a lot in the off season. I saw him a bunch and he never impressed me. He was bailed out a number of times by one ref in the Sweet 16 game when he drove into the lane, was completely out of control, initiated contact, and threw up prayers - only answered by the ref! In other games, he didn't take good shots and he didn't make a lot. Finally, he also needs to control his emotions. There were several times I thought he was about to go over the line and one moment he did (though, no one saw it).

Dixon hit a BIG three pointer in the 2nd half of the Elite 8 game. He then promptly jawed something about the shot to Strickland. Strickland continued down the court and felt he had to say something (while down nearly 20). Dixon then litterly got in Strickland's ear and said a few more words. Strickland once again responded, and then as he got ready to set up on offense, he prompty threw an elbow into Dixon's ear. Neither guy was in the right... and the only reason Strickland didn't get called for a foul... was because of the unbelievable timing of Coach Polombo calling a time out. Strickland needs to keep his cool in those situations (and Dixon needs to not talk after big shots - actions are louder then words AND far more impressive).

As for Sanborn, I think having him and Strong in the game at the same time is a great idea. It actually allows Strong to play a #4 spot - which for a 6'11" guy in D3... is very impressive. However, I don't think having them together for an entire game is benefitual either. You have three options there... and changing it up all game long will throw other teams off.

Belkoski is certainly a talent at the #3. I would love to see him take a few more shots in games and be a threat outside and inside. By the way, he certainly did his best to grit it out in the 3 OT game... and then showed up in the Elite 8 game. He is going to be dangerous if left alone.

I could keep going on my thoughts about Guilford next season, but I won't - for now.

Final note, congrats to VWC on two incrediable seasons. Coach Macedo has shown that the Marlins are a team no one will take lightly in the years to come. They certainly lose a lot next season, but they will still be a very difficult team to beat... and near the top of the ODAC.

Dave - Thanks for your insight on the Quakers.  You've seen lots of DIII hoops, so your opinion is valued.

Certainly, Strong's the core, but starters Belkoski & Kimbrough are back, so GC has high 2007-08 expectations.  It's a plus that all 3 are seniors & have played together every year (even longer for Ben & Caleb).  Snipes will definitely be missed & Burge was also solid.  Unless someone else is recruited, Henson & Strickland are the key replacements.  Strickland injured his ankle in game 3 (Greensboro), but played well when he returned.  I've also noted the tendencies you cite, so Justin must improve.  I'm sure he'll gain during summer league ball with his teammates.  Henson's a sleeper who will take (& make) many 3's next season, but I also see him taking over some of Kimbrough's PG duties.   Caleb doesn't look to score, but when he does it's usually huge.  Just his ability to get Strong the ball makes him a starter, but he does sometimes struggle when Defenses repeatedly press him.

Tyler Sanborn is a BIG boy!  He'd start for many DIII teams & he's clearly Strong's heir apparent after Ben (sniff) graduates.  For lots of reasons (fouls, rest breaks, game flow, etc.), he probably won't start with Ben, but I see more court time together next year.  Tyler's FT shooting must improve, but he knows the game.

Belkoski plays bigger than his size & I expect him to take more threes next season.  He had some great games this year & really became someone who could affect the outcome of a game.  If he's hitting outside, it opens the middle even more for Strong.  I saw it happen & it's a no-win situation for an opposing Defense.

I anticipate GCQ being the ODAC preseason pick & that'll put pressure on them every game.  Let's see if Palombo can recruit anyone who contributes right away.  I see the need for another guard & a 6'5-6'6" forward who can play a run & shoot offense.  Hopefully, next season's rosy outlook for the Quakers will be a good lure!