MBB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[HSCfan]

I think this might be a good bet for those high on the latest Smith philosophies...and this isn't Mike's first parade...(trying to raise the level of inticement here, if inticement is even a word!)

[Pat Coleman]

Ok...how about this???

I agree that Bubba was handed an unbelievable roster his first year. That can almost be compared to what Mike Rhoades has in his arsenal this season, being the only recent contender to return almost all of his significant players (Jeremy Dixon being the only reduction from the roster). Rhoades will have Justin Short (POY candidate), Jordan Brown (reigning ROY), maybe Carlson (although I think the team will be better off in the long run without him), ideal do-it-all man Danny Jones, great defender and shot maker Boris Varela, and so on. He returns the most key players, should be the odds on favorite MUCH LIKE that Hampden-Sydney team of 2004.

So, Rhoades should be able to "burp" out instructions and win a title this year correct?

VWC lost Fantin, Balenga, and Tucker.
H-S lost Kaase, Murray, and Prehmus
Guilford lost Strong, Kimbrough, Belkoski, Edmond
W&L lost Bienemann
Roanoke lost LaPorte, Dowell, Carter

The usual suspects are down, R-MC is way up. Rhoades should coast this year according to recent board logic  Any takers??

Yes, because returning a bunch of players from a team that went to the Final Four is exactly the same as returning a bunch of players from a team that didn't make the final four of the ODAC.

[y_jack_lok]

The usual suspects are down, R-MC is way up. Rhoades should coast this year according to recent board logic  Any takers??

I hope you don't mind my intruding on your conversation. I've enjoyed reading your posts. You are all very high on the ODAC, and I agree with that. The ODAC is certainly a conference to be reckoned with nationally. Way better than three of the four teams I see out here in St. Louis -- national champ Wash U being the exception. R-MC getting voted the pre-season favorite to win the conference should be a no-brainer. But "coast this year"? I agree, HSCfan, that "recent board logic" was headed that direction. I expect there will be several contenders all the way to the final day of conference play.

[y_jack_lok]

And while I was writing my post Pat Coleman hit the nail on the head.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I still can't believe that Guilford went down in the very first game!

Is Sanford ready to be at least 'Strong-lite' (it would be totally unfair to expect anyone to completely replace Ben), and adequate replacements ready for the other grads, or is Guilford in for a BIG fall?

[HSCfan]

I would also add for sake of discussion...there are two very difficult things to do in the coaching profession:

1) Hold a team together after a changing of the guard - something Bubba did in 2004 and something he did again in 2007 in a changing, much more competitive ODAC, and

2) Win a championship when you are supposed to win, and are the overwhelming favorite. How many teams crumble under this pressure? A lot! Just look at the Patriots last year! Kudos to Tom Palombo and Dave Macedo who were able to do that recently, but being the top dog isn't easy (which is why this year was the first time all #1 seeds made it to the Final Four in the history of the NCAA D1 tourney!) In 2004, I'm sure every team and their uncle was shooting for Hampden-Sydney...a difficult proposition for a first time head coach in his first year. Yet he whethered the storm and delivered.

Mike Rhoades faces the same challenge this year. He will be the overwhelming favorite and will have every team gunning to prove itself against the Jackets. Like that 2004 year, the league is not bare of talent, although R-MC possesses much of it. It will be interesting to see if Rhoades can win one when he is DEFINITELY supposed to! He is very very capable, but again, the games aren't played on paper.

And this negative karma is killing me over here! Can I get a donation on the positive side?? 

[Jacketlawyer]

Mike Rhoades faces the same challenge this year. He will be the overwhelming favorite and will have every team gunning to prove itself against the Jackets. Like that 2004 year, the league is not bare of talent, although R-MC possesses much of it. It will be interesting to see if Rhoades can win one when he is DEFINITELY supposed to! He is very very capable, but again, the games aren't played on paper.

Good assertion.  It'll be fun to see how it all turns out! 8)

[eagleslam]

Pat...

You brought up the word "perennial".  I do not believe what any team does one year has much of an effect on how they perform in the future.  A team that is "perennial" will, of course, get better players.  But, those players still have to perform at a high level to be considered a "perennial power".

But, I will bring this up, since you brought up being a "perennial power".  From 2000-2004, E'town went 85-27 (.758).  They lost in the first round of the NCAA Tournament obviously in 2004 and 2003, but did not make it in 2001.  In 2002, they went 29-3, and made it to the championship game.  There were 8 players left on that team that played in the 2004 game against H-SC. 

Maybe their history did not, and maybe does not still, go back as far as Maryville's.  But their recent history when they played H-SC was outstanding.

 

[Pat Coleman]

There were 8 players left on that team that played in the 2004 game against H-SC. 

That is TREMENDOUS spin. Wow. Try this fact: Only three players from the 2004 HSC-Etown game played in the 2002 national title game, and they played a combined total of 26 minutes in the '02 game.

And that game was a blowout.

[eagleslam]

Talk about spinning. 

If that is the case, Pat, I will go with the 2003 Tigers went 0-2, whereas the 1999 Tigers made it to the title game, possibly the best ever, after blowing out the #1 ranked team in the semis.   

Pat, I won't spin this.  You have, and have always had, a dislike towards H-SC.  That is obvious to everyone who has any sense on this board.

I was merely saying Tiger fans never gave Bubba Smith a fair shake.  It was always Tony Shaver would do this or would not do that.  Coach Smith did some things that Tony Shaver did not do, such as what I have mentioned.  You were the one who started the spinning by saying of course, look at who they played.  Well, Maryville was a second round game, and E'town was a 1st round game, so would it not stand to reason the 2000 version of the Tigers would have had a better opponent anyway?  Is that a fact you should try, or was I spinning again?

Coach Shaver, as much as I like him and respect him, did not win an ODAC title with a team that swept through the entire regular season.  He did not win an NCAA game.  Maybe Coach Smith had an easier first round game then Shaver had a second round game, but I could do some more "spinning" and say they both lost in the second round, but in 2000 it was at home, after they received a bye, and in 2004 it was on the road, after they won a home game.  But, that is a fact, so is it really spinning?  Wow, Pat.  A board that promotes philosophy as well as Division Three basketball!

[tigerfanalso]

Eagleslam

I agree with you; Bubba was unfairly compared to a tremendously successful D3 coach; in the eyes of some HSC supporters, whatever he did was not going to be right ... Is that unfair ? Absolutely, but unfortuantely that is always the way for any coach that follows in the footsteps of a very successful, longterm coach. He followed a legend and the expectations were unusually high.

Given all of that; I think Bubba did an OK job; winning two ODAC championships in five years; one with "his" team, the first with "Coach Shavers" team; I think he was judged more by the regular season performance than by his total record. I don't know if that is fair or not, but I think that is what happened.

Bottom line, the HSC program was very strong when Tony left; remained fairly strong under Bubba's watch, and the future will tell what Coach Vick can do. I think he is the right man for the job for obvious reasons and I think he will build on what Bubba was able to do. Coaching is a tough profession, even at the D3 level, and often times opinions are not always formed based on reality but on the way "things" use to be.

I appreciate all that Bubba accomplished during is stay at HSC. I'm confident he will be a good fit at Sewanee and will improve that program.
I wish him all the luck in the world !!!!!

Go Tigers

[eagleslam]

TFA...

You are correct in that it is very difficult for any coach, at any level, in any sport, to replace someone at a school where he/she has been successful for any amount of time.

But, your "his" team and "Coach Shaver's" team comments are my point.  Sure, Coach Shaver recruited the main players on the 2003-04 team, but he did not coach them.  That was Bubba's team.  The 2003 team did not even win the ODAC title.  Macon did.  Of course, cutting the nets down in Crenshaw softened the blow.  Had to put that in there. 

Hardly anybody gave Bubba credit when he won in 2007.  They said it was because Mike Edwards went crazy for four games (Macon on Senior Day, then the ODAC Tournament).  But few people wanted to say that Bubba had put in an offense that aloowed Edwards the freedom it did.  He had to put in an entirely new offesne when Troy went down that year over Christmas.  It took a while to flow.  When Coach Shaver put in a zone against Macon in 2001, all anyone wanted to talk about was how great of a coaching strategy it was.  Both were great coaching strategies.  But Coach Smith never got the recognition and praise for his that Coach Shaver did.

[Pat Coleman]

Talk about spinning. 

If that is the case, Pat, I will go with the 2003 Tigers went 0-2, whereas the 1999 Tigers made it to the title game, possibly the best ever, after blowing out the #1 ranked team in the semis.   

Pat, I won't spin this.  You have, and have always had, a dislike towards H-SC.  That is obvious to everyone who has any sense on this board.

I was merely saying Tiger fans never gave Bubba Smith a fair shake.  It was always Tony Shaver would do this or would not do that.  Coach Smith did some things that Tony Shaver did not do, such as what I have mentioned.  You were the one who started the spinning by saying of course, look at who they played.  Well, Maryville was a second round game, and E'town was a 1st round game, so would it not stand to reason the 2000 version of the Tigers would have had a better opponent anyway?  Is that a fact you should try, or was I spinning again?

Coach Shaver, as much as I like him and respect him, did not win an ODAC title with a team that swept through the entire regular season.  He did not win an NCAA game.  Maybe Coach Smith had an easier first round game then Shaver had a second round game, but I could do some more "spinning" and say they both lost in the second round, but in 2000 it was at home, after they received a bye, and in 2004 it was on the road, after they won a home game.  But, that is a fact, so is it really spinning?  Wow, Pat.  A board that promotes philosophy as well as Division Three basketball!

I'm just fact-checking and trying to defeat spin all across the board. I know that a person biased towards HSC is going to take that as a personal vendetta against their program, but that's because you're so biased in your own direction that I look like I'm on the other side when I'm actually in the middle.

I find it interesting that you think my attempts to play up Tony Shaver are dislike toward HSC.

"I was merely saying Tiger fans never gave Bubba Smith a fair shake."

I agree! Finally, some common ground. I think I mentioned many pages ago when Smith left that expectations on him were unreasonable.

[tigerfanalso]

Eagleslam

I refer to the 04 team as "Coach Shavers" team only because hhe recruited them to HSC, referring nothing else.

As far as what people said about the 07 championship, I never heard a negative word from anyone. In fact I drove to Roanoake in a pouring down rain that Sunday morning to watch & celebrate. Bubba did a great job with that team and I never heard a word otherwise. Anybody that thinks otherwise just simply does not know/understand basketball. As I said before, Tony was a legend and the person following behind him was going to have a difficult time short of getting back to the final four. Not fair but most coaches understand the deal.

Bubba will make his mark at the University of the South and that will become his legacy as a coach.

[Pat Coleman]

There may be more reasonable expectations at Sewanee, however. I wonder if expectations at HSC after what Shaver was able to accomplish were too high.

Bingo.