MBB: NESCAC

[madzillagd]

Since I'm new to following NESCAC hoops and we are talking basketball in May,  here's a few questions for the group:

I'm assuming everyone plays an equal league schedule - home & home.  Top 8 teams go to NESCAC tourney? 

How is seeding determined in the case of ties?

Is there a regular season 'champion' and a tourney champion - or just 1 tourney champion? 

I've heard some about the Little Three - are there other unique rivalries and/or games that exist between the schools that have special bragging rights?

Noticed in some old posts about individual awards - MVP/MOP? DPOY.  ROY.  All-NESCAC ... Are these voted on by the coaches? 

Scheduling - more of a general D3 question - filtering down from conversations between my bro & Maker, he mentioned that in terms of seeding and points that help determine getting into the playoffs you want to maintain a certain number of games within your region to help build up your resume.  If I'm remembering correctly, he went as far as saying it was more beneficial for him to schedule a D3 team in his region and win that game than it would be to schedule a D1 or D2 and beat them.  Seems odd to me that you wouldn't get extra credit for beating a higher level opponent.   Any insight into scheduling?

Speaking of schedules - when are schedules usually posted? 

[walzy31]

Since I'm new to following NESCAC hoops and we are talking basketball in May,  here's a few questions for the group:

I'm assuming everyone plays an equal league schedule - home & home.  Top 8 teams go to NESCAC tourney? 

How is seeding determined in the case of ties?

Is there a regular season 'champion' and a tourney champion - or just 1 tourney champion? 

I've heard some about the Little Three - are there other unique rivalries and/or games that exist between the schools that have special bragging rights?

Noticed in some old posts about individual awards - MVP/MOP? DPOY.  ROY.  All-NESCAC ... Are these voted on by the coaches? 

Scheduling - more of a general D3 question - filtering down from conversations between my bro & Maker, he mentioned that in terms of seeding and points that help determine getting into the playoffs you want to maintain a certain number of games within your region to help build up your resume.  If I'm remembering correctly, he went as far as saying it was more beneficial for him to schedule a D3 team in his region and win that game than it would be to schedule a D1 or D2 and beat them.  Seems odd to me that you wouldn't get extra credit for beating a higher level opponent.   Any insight into scheduling?

Speaking of schedules - when are schedules usually posted?

Love that you are bringing it back to hoops! Welcome to the board and hopefully your interest in the conference is a happy journey!

I'm assuming everyone plays an equal league schedule - home & home.  Top 8 teams go to NESCAC tourney? 
Each team plays 5 home league games and 5 away league games, competing against each school once, and it is not "home & home." The top 8 teams make the NESCAC (Quarterfinals hosted by top 4 seeds. Semis and Finals hosted by the highest remaining seed after the Quarterfinals are played---has always been the #1 seed as the #8 has never beaten the #1 in the Quarterfinal game.

How is seeding determined in the case of ties?
There is a convoluted 9-step process to determine tie breakers. Head to head, best record against top teams, etc etc. It has been posted many times on this forum and I couldn't find it easily online. Someone else will post it for you.
Is there a regular season 'champion' and a tourney champion - or just 1 tourney champion? 

I've heard some about the Little Three - are there other unique rivalries and/or games that exist between the schools that have special bragging rights?
Yes, the Maine teams play each other each twice (one counts for the conference standings and one does not) and do not like one another. Bates/Colby/Bowdoin.

Noticed in some old posts about individual awards - MVP/MOP? DPOY.  ROY.  All-NESCAC ... Are these voted on by the coaches? 
http://www.nescac.com/honors/allconference/index

Scheduling - more of a general D3 question - filtering down from conversations between my bro & Maker, he mentioned that in terms of seeding and points that help determine getting into the playoffs you want to maintain a certain number of games within your region to help build up your resume.  If I'm remembering correctly, he went as far as saying it was more beneficial for him to schedule a D3 team in his region and win that game than it would be to schedule a D1 or D2 and beat them.  Seems odd to me that you wouldn't get extra credit for beating a higher level opponent.   Any insight into scheduling?
There are experts on these forums that can speak to the intricacies of region rankings, but what your explained is accurate. The NCAA divides the country into regions and then ranks them based on how you perform in-region. There is more on this.

Speaking of schedules - when are schedules usually posted?
They trickle out in the fall. Most teams already have 15+ games scheduled for their next season now, but wait to release the schedules until all of their games are known.


Hope that helps!

[madzillagd]

Definitely helpful.  If I had any clue how to give Karma I would, but I don't so all I have is thanks. 

Interesting that they don't do a home and home - I'm used to that from the SCIAC but obviously with 11 teams that would eat up the whole schedule. I guess last year when I started paying a little bit of attention to Williams they played Amherst & Midd twice so I wasn't paying attention that they weren't all league games.

[WPI89]

Dave/Pat/Anyone

Anybody know how to get scores (or even better, box scores) from the allstar's team games in Europe?

[Pat Coleman]

I don't think we've been able to get them in the past, but I'll ask STI to see.

[lumbercat]

I thought my comments on Suzanne Coffey may stir things up a bit. I genuinely appreciate the replies!

Now I'll respond. I didn't make any comments on Coffey's performance at Amherst. I'll leave that to you guys. My comments were exclusively about her performance at Bates. I'm not connected to Amherst beyond my admiration of their perennial athletic prowess in NESCAC from my point of view which goes back to the mid 70's. I know little about the inside aspect of Amherst athletics as I reside on the other side of New England. Given my lack of knowledge of the Amherst program I'm not qualified to comment.

I am however qualified to comment on my observations of Coffey's tenure at Bates and stand behind those comments. Her performance was poor.

From my standpoint Amherst has been a powerhouse in the NESCAC in the major sports forever. I'ts not my intent here to evaluate her job at Amherst- if you guys say she has done a job I accept that but you have to acknowledge that she inherited a great Division 3 athletic situation in Amherst.

NESCAC 1:
Thanks again for your reply acknowledging the more favorable environment at Amherst in terms of resources, funding etc. There is no question about that.
Consider the following in support of my statements. Throughout Coffey's tenure at Bates they were constantly banging the drum for renovations or upgrades of the Football facility at Bates which was a disgrace. She did little or nothing to attempt to deal with the obvious need for upgrades of the facility. She was unable to formulate any kind of a plan to begin to address the situation. She made no progress on this which was arguably the most glaring problem within the Bates Athletic plant.
Last year, less than 3 years after her departure her successor, AD Kevin McHugh completed the job with the same administration and anti sports minded President still in place. It wasn't easy, McHugh had to devise plan to solicit donations from alumni which involved fundraisers, campaigns and a tremendous amount of overall effort to make it a reality. She had no clue where or how to begin.
Respectfully, I will make one comment about her accomplishments at Amherst. You cannot assign the credit to her for the fantastic renovations they are planning at Pratt field. That project is 100% funded in advance through 2 anonymous donations that were specifically earmarked for the project totalling 12 million dollars!!
I could manage that one.
12 mil donations earmarked for Athletic facilities does not happen at Bates. Coffey fared very poorly in that environment, her successor has done very well. The Bates Football project cost about 3 mil which needed to come totally from outside donations. It wasn't easy. I won't waiver in my opinion that if she was still at Bates they would be still be sitting in the old stands at Garcelon Field this fall.

WALCZY 31:
Thanks for your comments as well most of which portray the situation at Amherst. I'll accept your points there.
First and foremost there is no vendetta or agenda on my part with Ms. Coffey. I met her once, heard her speak several times and feel she was very intelligent and seemed like a nice person to boot. No bad feelings for her personally. I just think she did a lousy job. Further, I feel it's quite appropriate to express that opinion in this forum. There was no personal attack beyond a profoundly negative opinion of her performance as the Bates AD. We can disagree on that, I respect your opinion.
Your comments about Bates not faring well for the most part in the conference are totally correct. Bates is not a NESCAC powerhouse, but as weak as they may look to you I suggest you check the record. The overall program has improved significantly. Take a walk around the campus and look at the improvements in their Athletic facilities that have been made recently. Take it from someone who has observed things first hand  for a number of years. They have done little in the past 5 years in comparison with NESCAC powers as you state but they have accomplished more overall recently than in any time period in the last 25 years. Not sure you can recall how bad it was. They are finally moving in the right direction but surely have a long way to go.
To cite 2 outstanding past players in Ray and Stockwell and say it hasn't been the same since is not really a indication of the overall program. In recent years they have had some other good ones like Wholey, Ellis and Squires this year who made himself into a good player under Furbush. We lost a good one in Reilly but Furbush has done a great job and he is getting better as continues to grow as a head coach. He has a way to go to top Reilly's achievements but at this time in his young career he's ahead of where Reilly was at this point.
Sure they would love to have Ray and Stockwell back..... but not sure what you are referring to in terms of specifics within their Athletic program that were better during Coffey's tenure. It's night and day, and I hope for their sake at some point that they can make that jump to the next level. It will be difficult but they are better positioned in Lewiston to take that step now than at any time in the last 30 years.
Good luck to Bates and Amherst and thanks for your reply Walzy.

[jumpshot]

There has been lots of clear evidence of the intensely increased emphasis on athletics at Amherst in recent years, requiring the explicit endorsement (and compromise) by many people. One specific fact is the greater amount of time devoted by various teams to schedules of games. For example, Amherst's men's tennis team played 34 matches in 2011-2012 (Williams played 22 while finishing ahead of Amherst in the NCAA); Amherst softball had 42 games; etc. A combination of factors --recruiting, the "General Manager" in admissions, avid influential alumni, changes in administraive positions and coaches -- whatever-- have resulted for the moment in 50 consecutive women's basketball wins, several NCAA participations, etc. What the sustained results are over many future years remains to be seen; right now the pendulum has moved into space that likely will bring some temperance by academic faculty.

[watercow]

There has been lots of clear evidence of the intensely increased emphasis on athletics at Amherst in recent years, requiring the explicit endorsement (and compromise) by many people. One specific fact is the greater amount of time devoted by various teams to schedules of games. For example, Amherst's men's tennis team played 34 matches in 2011-2012 (Williams played 22 while finishing ahead of Amherst in the NCAA); Amherst softball had 42 games; etc. A combination of factors --recruiting, the "General Manager" in admissions, avid influential alumni, changes in administraive positions and coaches -- whatever-- have resulted for the moment in 50 consecutive women's basketball wins, several NCAA participations, etc. What the sustained results are over many future years remains to be seen; right now the pendulum has moved into space that likely will bring some temperance by academic faculty.

Yet Amherst's admissions selectivity has continued to increase. Anyway, I'm quickly coming to the belief that Amherst/Williams compete more with the Ivy League than other NESCAC schools for athletic recruits, including hoops.

[amh63]

I have been reading the posts on the state of athletic programs in the conference in general and Amherst's AD in particular.....and the posts have brought smiles and new info to an elder graduate of Amherst who has followed the sports at Amherst in earnest since the 80's.  I have experienced the good years and the bad years.  I will just add some comments and data to the conversations...not to prolong the topic but to illustrate IMO that there is not always a simple answer and due to a single person.
First, welcome aboard Watercow!
Frank U.....your comments are always refreshing and true to your football preference.  Nescac1...Your comments are quite surprising.
Anyway...here goes...I believe that S. Coffey was involved in a program in Rhode Island....leave of absence from Bates? when she was hired at Amherst.  Her son is a graduate of Amherst and played on the soccer team.  While at Amherst, there has been a new women's BB coach that took the players he had on hand to the NCAA.....he also took his first recruited players to 4 straight final 4's.  There has been a new men's tennis coach that lead his team to Amherst's first national title.  The new men's laccross coach came from Colby and took his team to the final eight....I believe.  There has been a new soccer coach that took his first team to the final 8 also....and a new men's baseball coach that has had very good teams.  There has been a new turf field for field hockey/laccross and I know that the AD has lobbied for new football facilities and other sports....new softball field.  This Spring Amherst hosted three NCAA regionals!
Since she has been at Amherst, Amherst has had increased student enrollment ..almost to 1800..while still decreasing its acceptance %.  This year the acceptance was 16%!  the lowest in the conference.
I could go on...but I believe that this topic has run its course.   In the end, with new prez at Amherst. Bates and at Tufts and new support at Wes., the conference battles will become more fun to watch...Hamilton is also improving.. and we will all benefit.
Yes, Amherst and Williams both have at present, the most resources in terms of endowment and academic rep. and that helps.

[lumbercat]

Amh63:
I agree.
The Jeffs have been a great program and continue perennially in that direction. The lesser programs in the  conference aspire to the level of  Amherst and Williams athletics and your acheivements. This is very healthy in my estimation. If you are CBB athlete you are trying to get to that level which makes one better. A win over Amherst or Williams is the paramount measure of success on more than one NESCAC campus.
At times rooting for the underdogs is fun but at the end of the day their collective aspirations are to get to the level where the Williams and Amherst program have resided for many years. For the most part, Trinity has been the only school to attain and possibly surpass that that level over the years. Not sure if the schools on the lower level can get there....it becomes the Cubs or the old Red Sox yet in a strange kind of way it's fun. Thus we all enjoy the NESCAC for different reasons.
At the end of the day the NESCAC is an athletic venue that we follow for the pure athletic competition where all the schools are striving to be their best amidst a great athletic philosophy.

[frank uible]

When speaking of success in athletic programs among NESCAC colleges, one should not overlook Middlebury - dominant in skiing seemingly forever, a primary factor in hockey for a very long time, a factor in lacrosse for a long time and in soccer relatively recently. Probably a worthy sport or two has been omitted.

[lumbercat]

Frank-
You are right- totally overlooked Middlebury. Great success in Hockey and Lacrosse with some good football years to boot. Some of that success we need to attribute to old friend Russ Reilly, former Panther AD who is one of great Bates Bobcats of all time. Russ may wear Blue and White into the NESCAC hall of fame but Maine folks believe that Russ still holds a love for the Bobcats despite his great career in Panther nation.
Significant in recent Middlebury athletic accomplishment is the emergence of Panther basketball. After years of silence they are now of national prominence.  They now are a challenge to Amherst and Williams. A nice feat for Middlebury to have enjoyed a national campionship program in Hockey and trump that with this great Basketball program they have assembled........thats a story of athletic excellence.

Those of us with Maine roots think of our "Old Guy" who revels in the accomplishments of Panther Basketball years after his tenure as a Middlebury sharpshooter. They said he couldn't miss from 15 feet. He's another guy with Bates roots who honed his stroke at Bates Alumni Gym in preparation for his migration to Middlebury where he realized great athletic and professional success.

Love your Williams football show, Frank, never miss it.  You guys do a great job. Look forward to seeing the Ephs on the gridiron at Bates this fall. Imagine your guys can't wait to get off the bus after last years upset.  Coach Harriman will have the Bobcats ready and they will play hard.  Colby will be ready for you in the opener as well. 

Also look forward to seeing the Purple at Tufts.....Good Luck Frank, it'll be fun.

[frank uible]

lumbercat: Many thanks. With respect to 2012 NESCAC football outcomes, my crystal ball is muddy on specifics. At any rate there should be more than the usual number of surprises - perhaps one being a significant improvement in the Wesleyan record.

[formerbant10]

Sure they would love to have Ray and Stockwell back.....

Zak can still play.  He's probably better now than he was in college.

Let's not forget that Trinity Hockey made it to 2 Frozen Fours in the early 2000's messing with Midd's dominance.  Baseball, I think the call it America's pasttime, has been pretty good in Hartford as well.  Not sure how many pros they've turned out since 2003 but my guess it is the most of any 'CAC school.

And yes Amherst and Williams compete with the Ivy League for recruits, but not the top guys in the Ivy League anymore.  I don't think this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpEsSebblPA&list=UUhN--EaKG1qig-gwl7XRK3w&index=1&feature=plcp) ever entertained wearing either purple

[lumbercat]

Frank-
Couldn't agree more on Wesleyan.  Thought they would be better last year. Whelan not used to losing and his offensive coordinator has to be one of the best coaches in the conference. I think their emergence will revive the competitiveness of their traditional rivalry with Trinity.
Most importantly they seem to have great adminstrative support which can be an obstacle for Athletic Programs in the NESCAC.
Their freshman running back Drew is a fantastic athlete who should be a great one. Great sprinter this spring for Cardinal Track team. Not sure there are others in the conference with his tools.