MBB: NESCAC

[nescac1]

Lefrakenstein, I think that Mayer is certainly a worthy candidate and would win POY in many years.  He is having a great year and keeps improving over time.  He could easily have much bigger numbers if Williams went to him more consistently ... some games Epley or Nate will carry the team and Mayer will be relatively quiet.  I think if Mayer keeps improving at the rate (in particular, if he can become a bigger factor on D and on the glass) he has each offseason to-date, he will be a first-team all-American guy next year and battle Toomey for best player not only regionally, but possibly nationally.  Right now I'd rank him just a bit behind the Amherst duo (but ahead of both Kizell and Thompson) just because of Amherst's team dominance and how huge both have come up on both ends in the big games.  If Williams can somehow beat Midd and Amherst back-to-back and Mayer has huge games in each, he would be worthy of POY. 

[old_hooper]

The big stat that has not been mentioned, toomey has led his team to 24 straight cac wins and a championship and another one on the horizon.  I too believe that bc of Workman's heroics on Tuesday that he should be a serious contender for the award but if you look at this season and toomey as Walzy says is POY.  Would be surprised if coaches see it differently.  Thompson is special for what he has done, but again, if you game plan against Midd, he is a 3rd or 4th to stop.  Toomey is the focus to stop in Amherst game plan.

[lefrakenstein]

Old Hooper, you didn't hear?

Measuring value of a player based on wins and game-winning shots is extremely outdated.

Who does that anymore?

[Bucket]

Walzy's wish for Sha to drop 40 on Middlebury was...unfulfilled. As noted, Thompson holds Brown to one field goal (1-11 from the field) and six total points.

I think trying to compare Aaron Toomey and Nolan Thompson is silly--two totally different players who do different things to help their team win. Nolan will not put up the same offensive numbers as Toomey--he doesn't need to for his team to win. He will shoot the ball 8, 9 times a game, get his 12-15 points, and that is what is asked of him. He doesn't need to dish out 5 assists a game for Middlebury to win; that's what Jake Wolfin does (or Joey Kizel). Likewise, Aaron Toomey doesn't need to guard the other team's best offensive player for Amherst to win; that's what Willy Workman does.

Toomey and Nolan happened to be the very best at what they do, so I guess that's why comparisons are bound to happen. And when they do go head-to-head, I guess the comparisons are inevitable. I wouldn't trade Nolan Thompson for anyone, and I'm sure Amherst would say the same about Toomey.

Lost in all of this discussion (well, not completely) is Willy Workman. He might not be the best offensive player in the conference nor the best defensive player in the conference--but maybe for what Amherst needs this year he's the best player?

Other notes:

• Nescac1 mentioned Joey Kizel—in a low-scoring game, he puts up 20 on 7-11 shooting. The bigger the stage, the better he gets.
• Nice balanced scoring for Midd—12 for Wolfin, 12 for Thompson, 12 for Lynch, 20 for Kizel.
• Glen Thomas was a beast, especially in the first half, for Wesleyan. He had a double double for the Cards, 11 pts and 12 boards.
• This Wesleyan team finishes below .500. That's stunning, if you ask me.
• Now, wasn't it just a week or so ago that the poster named Charles was proclaiming Wes the second best team in the conference, with stronger senior leadership than Middlebury or Williams? He might want to change his handle to Baghdad Bob.

[walzy31]

Love having the board back on track. Really looking forward to next weekend in Amherst, MA.
Bucket put words to why the back and forth regarding Thompson & Toomey is difficult. Well said.

The reality is, all three of these teams can make deep runs in the NCAAs if they play their A-games.

Hudnut on Colby came out of nowhere today and did his best Omer Asik. Mainehoops, I was laughing very hard when Hudnut and Toomey traded baskets on three or four straight possessions in the first half and the announcers were cracking up saying "right back at you Toomey!" and "Now what you got Hudnut?!...pass the ball to Hudnut!" They are funny and bring energy to the broadcast. In contrast, the JumboCast today had two announcers that you would never know were calling a two-possession playoff basketball game. No mention of score, situation, or incredible plays. But their video stream is solid and so is their youth (does any team in the conference have a better freshmen and sophomore core?)!

[lefrakenstein]

Toomey did break the NESCAC tournament record for 3s in a game today. The previous record was 7, held by Kino Clarke and Chris Shalvoy. (I'll be glad to have that Shalvoy game expunged from the record book. Maybe one day it will be expunged from my memory.)

[walzy31]

Haha I try to forget about Shalvoy and Kain's single-game heroics but can't.
Clarke's game was also in Lefrak and Shalvoy was on the court. 7-10 from three and 23 pts at the half (35 in the game in a loss). I'll never forget that show he put on.

[toad22]

That weekend in 2007 featured some of the best basketball seen in NESCAC playoff history. Williams prevailed in a total upset (both games). Amherst shouldn't be too upset by this as Amherst went on to win the national champoinship. Williams lost in the first round.

[Old Guy]

The previous record was 7, held by Kino Clarke and Chris Shalvoy. Lafrakenstein

What I think of when I hear the name "Shalvoy": I'll never forget Shalvoy's (and Rose's) senior year at Williams and Paulson's last year, 2008. Middlebury beat Williams twice, the second time by 37 points, 96-59, in the quarterfinals of the NESCAC tourney, an outcome as implausible, historically speaking, as the parting of the Red Sea. That was the first year we made the NCAA tourney, behind juniors Ben Rudin, Aaron Smith, and Andrew Harris (we lost to Rochester in the first round, up there). That may have been the symbolic starting point of Midd's emergence as a basketball power. I think I have my history right. Williams had our number for 50+ years.

[Panthernation]

re: Thompson vs. Toomey (or whomever), I think that defense is generally undervalued, but I also think that a guy who can make an entire offense run (like Toomey) and who can put a team on his back offensively is more valuable than even a historically good (for D-3) wing defender.  After all, Thompson can only guard one guy ... I don't think anyone would prefer on their team the best wing defender in the NBA (over the years, Bruce Bowen, Tony Allen, Shane Battier as mentioned, etc.) over an elite scorer.  Now, if you are one of the best at offense and defense (think Scottie Pippin), that is a different story, and Workman is sort of the Pippin of NESCAC.  That is why I'd also take him over Thompson.  If I had to face Midd, even, and had to pick one player to sit out, it would be Kizell, not Thompson.

This "Thompson can only guard one guy" thing is bad analysis. Just like a good offensive player improves the guys around him, a good defensive player has a huge impact on the team's defense, and on every other player on the court.

Bruce Bowen is a good comparison, if Bruce Bowen never allowed more than 3 FGs to any opponent in a game while matching up with all of the best players in the league at every position except center and shot 54% from the field and 52% from three and averaged 4 points less per game than the presumptive MVP and outscored him on half as many shots when they matched up. Can't compare Nolan Thompson in the NESCAC to Bowen, Allen, and Battier in the NBA.

To those who say Thompson is 3rd or 4th guy you prepare for when you're playing Middlebury, who do you have going before him besides Kizel. He is fairly clearly the #2 best offensive player on the team, considering Lynch's lessened impact in conference play this year. 3rd or 4th? Behind who?

The fact that teams game plan against Aaron Toomey settles nothing in the debate. It speaks to what we already know: Toomey is a more dangerous offensive player. Just proving an agreed upon premise.

The argument that Toomey finds more ways to contribute is silly. How many "ways to contribute" does defense count as? Can we split it up into as many as we split offense? Because when you can stop 1s, 2s, 3s, and 4s who have a wide variety of skill-sets and offensive tendencies on a regular basis throughout every game, you're not just doing one thing ("defense") right; you're doing a ton of difficult and valuable things right. Obviously a statistics-driven metric isn't going to reflect that value one iota; that doesn't mean it's worth any less than a ton on the court.

[toad22]

Old Guy, you have cut me to the quick with that recollection of the quarterfinal game game up at Midd in 2008. That was the low point of Williams basketball in the last 20 years. In the second half of that game, for the first time in my memory, our players threw in the towel and rolled over. It was a close game up until the half. In the second half, Midd distroyed us, and with that loss, we lost our self respect. Dave Paulsen got the Bucknell job that spring, and the Mike Maker era began at Williams. Some posters on the board have written about Maker taking over a thriving program. Nothing could be further from the truth. Williams was a complete mess when Maker arrived. He had a great tradition to build on, but in that moment in 2008, the program was in the worst shape is has been in since at least the 1970s. He has done a brilliant job and Williams is back where it belongs. That game at Midd was a black day for all Williams bball fans.

[lefrakenstein]

This "Thompson can only guard one guy" thing is bad analysis. Just like a good offensive player improves the guys around him, a good defensive player has a huge impact on the team's defense, and on every other player on the court.

Bruce Bowen is a good comparison, if Bruce Bowen never allowed more than 3 FGs to any opponent in a game while matching up with all of the best players in the league at every position except center and shot 54% from the field and 52% from three and averaged 4 points less per game than the presumptive MVP and outscored him on half as many shots when they matched up. Can't compare Nolan Thompson in the NESCAC to Bowen, Allen, and Battier in the NBA.

To those who say Thompson is 3rd or 4th guy you prepare for when you're playing Middlebury, who do you have going before him besides Kizel. He is fairly clearly the #2 best offensive player on the team, considering Lynch's lessened impact in conference play this year. 3rd or 4th? Behind who?

The fact that teams game plan against Aaron Toomey settles nothing in the debate. It speaks to what we already know: Toomey is a more dangerous offensive player. Just proving an agreed upon premise.

The argument that Toomey finds more ways to contribute is silly. How many "ways to contribute" does defense count as? Can we split it up into as many as we split offense? Because when you can stop 1s, 2s, 3s, and 4s who have a wide variety of skill-sets and offensive tendencies on a regular basis throughout every game, you're not just doing one thing ("defense") right; you're doing a ton of difficult and valuable things right. Obviously a statistics-driven metric isn't going to reflect that value one iota; that doesn't mean it's worth any less than a ton on the court.

Actually, one thing that stands out watching NT is that one reason that his marks score so infrequently is that he NEVER helps anybody else on defense. He is on his man like glue, and nothing will persuade him to be distracted by pressing needs elsewhere in the defensive set. Even when a shot is up, he stays by his mark,even if they are not a threat to grab the rebound, rather than crash the boards: no wonder he grabs so few caroms. His style works on Midd b/c they have some great interior help defenders in Lynch and Roberts, but it's nonsense to say that NT is a great team defender just b/c he's a great one on one defender. In reality, he's really not at all.

Another thing that stands out watching NT: he is insanely good at getting through screens. A master.

[Old Guy]

I'm pleased and surprised that an argument can be made for Thompson as 1st team All-Nescac and possible POY. It just doesn't usually happen that a player like Nolan gets this kind of consideration - he's not glitter, he's glue. Intangibles are just that - not numbers, and Nolan is loaded with 'em. I've been at Midd for decades, and have enjoyed the play of many players, none more so than Nolan. Just so solid.

You know, he's pretty good offensively. In the tough first half today, he converted a couple of really tough moves to the hoop, creative. I think he could carry more of the offensive load on another team, or this team, if need be. Nolan has been good, invaluable really, since day one, but he has raised his game to a very high level this year.

His work on Brown today was really something. He's not flashy, doesn't make a lot of steals or block shots, just seals off the drive and prevents the outside shot. A great moment in today's game: Shasha was wheeling and dealing, dribbling between his legs back and forth, drove left and was shut off, drove right and was shut off, stepped back and had no shot - the crowd responded with applause and a big cheer - in the middle of the possession. Not sure I had ever seen that.

[Panthernation]

This "Thompson can only guard one guy" thing is bad analysis. Just like a good offensive player improves the guys around him, a good defensive player has a huge impact on the team's defense, and on every other player on the court.

Bruce Bowen is a good comparison, if Bruce Bowen never allowed more than 3 FGs to any opponent in a game while matching up with all of the best players in the league at every position except center and shot 54% from the field and 52% from three and averaged 4 points less per game than the presumptive MVP and outscored him on half as many shots when they matched up. Can't compare Nolan Thompson in the NESCAC to Bowen, Allen, and Battier in the NBA.

To those who say Thompson is 3rd or 4th guy you prepare for when you're playing Middlebury, who do you have going before him besides Kizel. He is fairly clearly the #2 best offensive player on the team, considering Lynch's lessened impact in conference play this year. 3rd or 4th? Behind who?

The fact that teams game plan against Aaron Toomey settles nothing in the debate. It speaks to what we already know: Toomey is a more dangerous offensive player. Just proving an agreed upon premise.

The argument that Toomey finds more ways to contribute is silly. How many "ways to contribute" does defense count as? Can we split it up into as many as we split offense? Because when you can stop 1s, 2s, 3s, and 4s who have a wide variety of skill-sets and offensive tendencies on a regular basis throughout every game, you're not just doing one thing ("defense") right; you're doing a ton of difficult and valuable things right. Obviously a statistics-driven metric isn't going to reflect that value one iota; that doesn't mean it's worth any less than a ton on the court.

Actually, one thing that stands out watching NT is that one reason that his marks score so infrequently is that he NEVER helps anybody else on defense. He is on his man like glue, and nothing will persuade him to be distracted by pressing needs elsewhere in the defensive set. Even when a shot is up, he stays by his mark,even if they are not a threat to grab the rebound, rather than crash the boards: no wonder he grabs so few caroms. His style works on Midd b/c they have some great interior help defenders in Lynch and Roberts, but it's nonsense to say that NT is a great team defender just b/c he's a great one on one defender. In reality, he's really not at all.

Another thing that stands out watching NT: he is insanely good at getting through screens. A master.

Don't understand what you're saying this for. Is this a response to the point that a good defender changes how the whole team's defense is played? Never said he was a "great team defender," which you seem to be attributing here... said he has a huge impact on the whole team's defense. It was a response to the claim that one defender can't alter the game that much. Here, an elucidation, if this concept is unclear:

When one player, the best player (usually), on a team is shut down both on and off the ball, it has a ripple effect on the entire offense because it breaks up the tempo, fluidity, and motion that the team relies on to get its looks. Whether the glue defense means a dribble-penetrator can't drive to the hoop and draw help and dish outside, or stops passes from going to a player who can usually get open with motion on the perimeter, thus forcing the offense to reset instead of going through its sets, the effects are constant and significant. In fact, this point is no more than the logical implication of the point to which it was a response. One great offensive player changes the whole game, creates shots, makes things happen, alters game plans, and generally facilitates positive externalities. Therefore, shutting down a great player has numerous and significant carry-over effects on the team.

And thus the statement, "a good defensive player has a huge impact on the team's defense, and on every other player on the court," is true for a glue defender. It was said with full knowledge of Nolan's style of play. So the argument misses the point.

[lefrakenstein]

Don't understand what you're saying this for. Is this a response to the point that a good defender changes how the whole team's defense is played? Never said he was a "great team defender," which you seem to be attributing here... said he has a huge impact on the whole team's defense. It was a response to the claim that one defender can't alter the game that much. Here, an elucidation, if this concept is unclear:

When one player, the best player (usually), on a team is shut down both on and off the ball, it has a ripple effect on the entire offense because it breaks up the tempo, fluidity, and motion that the team relies on to get its looks. Whether the glue defense means a dribble-penetrator can't drive to the hoop and draw help and dish outside, or stops passes from going to a player who can usually get open with motion on the perimeter, thus forcing the offense to reset instead of going through its sets, the effects are constant and significant. In fact, this point is no more than the logical implication of the point to which it was a response. One great offensive player changes the whole game, creates shots, makes things happen, alters game plans, and generally facilitates positive externalities. Therefore, shutting down a great player has numerous and significant carry-over effects on the team.

And thus the statement, "a good defensive player has a huge impact on the team's defense, and on every other player on the court," is true for a glue defender. It was said with full knowledge of Nolan's style of play. So the argument misses the point.

you're right that shutting down a team's best player can disrupt flow, etc. in ways that help a team's defense.

But it's also true that not helping away from your man and not rebounding as much as another player otherwise might can hurt a team's defense. Is that such a hard point to grasp?

I'm done with this argument. Agree to disagree on whether Thompson should beat Toomey for poy. For the record, I think Thompson is a phenomenal player.