MBB: NESCAC

[Charles]

If anyone is online and wants to see what a couple of top 10 teams in the Midwest look like:    http://www.nctv17.com/schedule/

Thus far, they appear less athletic than the top NESCAC teams.

They both look so unathletic and slow. How are they ranked in the top 5? Wow.

Oh, my!  I am SO pumped to see either IWU or NCC to face a NESCAC team!  My hunch is that you will see why they are ranked in the top 5.

And this is from a guy who has Amherst and Midd both in the top 5, and Williams in the top 10, on the Posters' Poll.  (Charles, I will not reveal where YOU voted IWU and NCC vs. the NESCAC teams in the Posters' Poll! )

I tell you what, I had only seen small snippets of them play, highlights if you will, never really watched most of a game. I was suprised. They were very big for sure, but I have watched a number of teams that have fast and athletic guards that both these teams would have a hard time running the floor with for 40 minutes. and yes Mr. Yipsi you're right I do have them overrated. Gosh they even make some of the NESCAC teams seem athletic. 

[middhoops]

You have to agree with Pat C.  The evidence is there that shows teams of 'unathletic looking guys' from the flat lands usually win the D3 championship.  Even in a close defeat you could see where the Ill. Wesleyan team played exceptionally well together.  They also have some big physical players, an asset that few NESCAC teams can claim. 
My sense was that while both teams were deeper than Amherst, they were far less talented.
Williams and Middlebury would be interesting match ups against either North Central or IW.  And, it's possible we could see that in the coming weeks.

[AO]

You have to agree with Pat C.  The evidence is there that shows teams of 'unathletic looking guys' from the flat lands usually win the D3 championship.  Even in a close defeat you could see where the Ill. Wesleyan team played exceptionally well together.  They also have some big physical players, an asset that few NESCAC teams can claim. 
My sense was that while both teams were deeper than Amherst, they were far less talented.
Williams and Middlebury would be interesting match ups against either North Central or IW.  And, it's possible we could see that in the coming weeks.

I'm betting the tournament committee gives the NESCAC the usual "easier side of the bracket" and makes the very athletic Tommies take care of the CCIW teams.

[Panthernation]

If anyone is online and wants to see what a couple of top 10 teams in the Midwest look like:    http://www.nctv17.com/schedule/

Thus far, they appear less athletic than the top NESCAC teams.

They both look so unathletic and slow. How are they ranked in the top 5? Wow.

Oh, my!  I am SO pumped to see either IWU or NCC to face a NESCAC team!  My hunch is that you will see why they are ranked in the top 5.

And this is from a guy who has Amherst and Midd both in the top 5, and Williams in the top 10, on the Posters' Poll.  (Charles, I will not reveal where YOU voted IWU and NCC vs. the NESCAC teams in the Posters' Poll! )

Mr. Yipsi, Illinois Wesleyan has already played a NESCAC team. They beat Tufts 71-62 in November at a tournament at Wash U. Tufts led that game by 7 with 5:40 to play, but only made one more field goal the rest of the way, and IWU outscored them 19-3 over that period. The Titans looked even better in the loss last night against North Central. Going into that game they were 13-0 in the CCIW and trying to become the first CCIW team to go undefeated in conference play since Augastana in 1973.

No idea why Charles thought either team looked unathletic. No doubt he thinks Wesleyan would make easy work of the Titans or North Central. To compare IWU to another midwest school, I thought the Titans resembled a more talented version of last year's (and possibly this year's) Scranton team, which knocked Middlebury off in the Sweet 16. Both teams have/had great balance offensively: nobody averages more than 11.5 points per game for Illinois Wesleyan, but they have six players who average between 8 and 12 points per game. They're a really good passing team (15.3 assists per game) and they had great ball movement yesterday.

Teams that can get consistent scoring from multiple players, play good defense (IWU allows 61 ppg to opponents) and know how to win are tough outs. I wouldn't want to see this team until late in the tournament, if at all.

[middhoops]

Excellent points all, Panthernation.

[amh63]

Going back to Amherst's final 4 contests,  Amherst beat and lost to Midwest teams.  They beat Wooster before winning against Va Wesleyan in '07...lost to WASU in the finals in''08.....lost to IWU for 3rd in''06, I believe.  Amherst also lost to Williams in the Final 4.
Points raised by posters are good.  However,  it comes down to match ups, IMO.  Va Wes was the defending champs when Amherst beat them.  They had quickness and a great forward but not overall size...athletic though.  In '08, Amherst had size and talent but was beaten by a team with size and talent.   WASU  plays in the UAA and against teams like Rochester and. Brandeis which "CAC" teams meet.   Just some thoughts to consider in the Midwest vs. Northeast discussion.

Closer to home and falling into the trival bin.   Former Sen. Brown of Mass was on the Amherst campus on Feb. 10.  Brown, a BB player at Tufts, pointed out the Tufts-Amherst rivalry and going to Coach Hixon's bb camp...gave a shout out to Hixon.    Amherst will play Tufts on Sat.

[frank uible]

In 2004 at Salem Amherst lost to Williams (semi-finals) and then to John Carroll the next day (3rd place game).

[Tuftsballer]

Quick question for the board - I am a Tufts guy - I want to see what the consensus is on this board because I know you all watch way more NESCAC than I ever did or will - Would the Tufts team of 2006 beat this Tufts team that is play in the semi's against Amherest this week? And what would be the line of a game like that?

[amh63]

Frank..thanks for the particulars...trying to forget!

Tuftsballer...thanks for implying that you are young.    First, suggest that you should never compare one fine Tufts team with another...no win situation, IMO.   To ask for spread info on them against Amherst teams is most difficult.   The '06 Amherst team went to the Final 4 and this year's team has hopes of such a goal, but must remain focus on now.   Go to the Amherst archives bb site to see how that team did against Amherst in the tourney.....I believe it was a barn burner.
Oh yes...there is never a consensus on this board!

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

You have to agree with Pat C.  The evidence is there that shows teams of 'unathletic looking guys' from the flat lands usually win the D3 championship.  Even in a close defeat you could see where the Ill. Wesleyan team played exceptionally well together.  They also have some big physical players, an asset that few NESCAC teams can claim. 
My sense was that while both teams were deeper than Amherst, they were far less talented.
Williams and Middlebury would be interesting match ups against either North Central or IW.  And, it's possible we could see that in the coming weeks.

I'm betting the tournament committee gives the NESCAC the usual "easier side of the bracket" and makes the very athletic Tommies take care of the CCIW teams.

Can't remember the last time the NESCAC got an "easy" bracket and this year certainly won't be it. Last year Amherst had to beat F&M to make it to the Elite 8 on the Diplomats home court... and that didn't happen. Had they won they would have faced MIT which clearly showed they belonged at the Final Four. This year the NESCAC will have to deal with some tough teams just in their region let alone Rochester, Ramapo, Catholic and others in the neighboring regions.

I am not saying those in the Midwest won't have a battle either - I just don't see an easy side of the bracket this year. As Titan Q has stated... parity.

Furthermore, with the Elite 8 at a neutral site this year, the committee could get really creative on these brackets and easily have possible NESCAC-CCIW or Northeast-Midwest or West-South or any other kind of combination set up for those games. It could be a really exciting bracket.

[Old Guy]

No idea why Charles thought either team looked unathletic. PantherNation

I am apprehensive about drawing conclusions from watching a game on-line, but I sure understand why Charles would say that. I took the suggestion just after I read it and watched the last ten minutes of the game and the overtime. The score was tied at 61 and I thought both teams looked awful from that point on - wish I had seen the first 30 minutes. All they did was miss shots, from the floor and the line, and turn the ball over, and foul. Illinois Wesleyan had two big fat guys, "unathletic" in the conventional sense certainly. I must have been watching a different game. Now I remember Tufts had a fat guy a few years back, Jake Weitzen, who surely was a good athlete and could really play, but he would not have been described as "athletic." North Central had a big guy, Gamble, who looked like a very good player. Wicked small sample size, I realize.

[Charles]

If anyone is online and wants to see what a couple of top 10 teams in the Midwest look like:    http://www.nctv17.com/schedule/

Thus far, they appear less athletic than the top NESCAC teams.

They both look so unathletic and slow. How are they ranked in the top 5? Wow.

Oh, my!  I am SO pumped to see either IWU or NCC to face a NESCAC team!  My hunch is that you will see why they are ranked in the top 5.

And this is from a guy who has Amherst and Midd both in the top 5, and Williams in the top 10, on the Posters' Poll.  (Charles, I will not reveal where YOU voted IWU and NCC vs. the NESCAC teams in the Posters' Poll! )

Mr. Yipsi, Illinois Wesleyan has already played a NESCAC team. They beat Tufts 71-62 in November at a tournament at Wash U. Tufts led that game by 7 with 5:40 to play, but only made one more field goal the rest of the way, and IWU outscored them 19-3 over that period. The Titans looked even better in the loss last night against North Central. Going into that game they were 13-0 in the CCIW and trying to become the first CCIW team to go undefeated in conference play since Augastana in 1973.

No idea why Charles thought either team looked unathletic. No doubt he thinks Wesleyan would make easy work of the Titans or North Central. To compare IWU to another midwest school, I thought the Titans resembled a more talented version of last year's (and possibly this year's) Scranton team, which knocked Middlebury off in the Sweet 16. Both teams have/had great balance offensively: nobody averages more than 11.5 points per game for Illinois Wesleyan, but they have six players who average between 8 and 12 points per game. They're a really good passing team (15.3 assists per game) and they had great ball movement yesterday.

Teams that can get consistent scoring from multiple players, play good defense (IWU allows 61 ppg to opponents) and know how to win are tough outs. I wouldn't want to see this team until late in the tournament, if at all.

Very hard to tell from one part of the country to the other, but from watching the 2nd half last night I actually think that Willliams, Amherst, and Tufts would all match up very well with them. I can only assume that since they hadan early season high ranking and haven't really lost that they just seemed to stay highly ranked, where a school like MIT which was highly ramked and lost some games really dropped. Early season rankings tend to be the team from last year until voters can watch more games.

[Charles]

No idea why Charles thought either team looked unathletic. PantherNation

I am apprehensive about drawing conclusions from watching a game on-line, but I sure understand why Charles would say that. I took the suggestion just after I read it and watched the last ten minutes of the game and the overtime. The score was tied at 61 and I thought both teams looked awful from that point on - wish I had seen the first 30 minutes. All they did was miss shots, from the floor and the line, and turn the ball over, and foul. Illinois Wesleyan had two big fat guys, "unathletic" in the conventional sense certainly. I must have been watching a different game. Now I remember Tufts had a fat guy a few years back, Jake Weitzen, who surely was a good athlete and could really play, but he would not have been described as "athletic." North Central had a big guy, Gamble, who looked like a very good player. Wicked small sample size, I realize.

Thank you.

[Panthernation]

No idea why Charles thought either team looked unathletic. PantherNation

I am apprehensive about drawing conclusions from watching a game on-line, but I sure understand why Charles would say that. I took the suggestion just after I read it and watched the last ten minutes of the game and the overtime. The score was tied at 61 and I thought both teams looked awful from that point on - wish I had seen the first 30 minutes. All they did was miss shots, from the floor and the line, and turn the ball over, and foul. Illinois Wesleyan had two big fat guys, "unathletic" in the conventional sense certainly. I must have been watching a different game. Now I remember Tufts had a fat guy a few years back, Jake Weitzen, who surely was a good athlete and could really play, but he would not have been described as "athletic." North Central had a big guy, Gamble, who looked like a very good player. Wicked small sample size, I realize.

Old Guy, one of the "two big fat guys" you are referring to is Andrew Ziemnik (#35), who leads IWU in scoring and played 41 minutes last night. He also made one of the biggest shots of the game: a long, long three-pointer to give IWU a two-point lead with 1:09 left in the game. For a 6'4'', 230 pounder that's a very athletic play. Athleticism comes in different forms — neither Wolfin nor Kizel can dunk, but we wouldn't hesitate to call them athletic.

While Ziemnik certainly fills out the uniform, he's a pretty impressive player with an inside outside game. He may not win any dunk contests in the future, but I don't think that's the only determinant of athleticism, and to Charles's point, I don't think that would stop IWU from competing with the upper echelon of NESCAC teams as they demonstrated when they beat Tufts.

As for the stretch of play you saw, Middlebury often times looks like a totally different team for periods of play, as does almost every team. IWU was really impressive in the first half, particularly on offense. Given the high esteem you hold for teams that can play, and win, on the road as IWU has this season, I'm surprised you're swayed by Charles's opinion.

[Panthernation]

If anyone is online and wants to see what a couple of top 10 teams in the Midwest look like:    http://www.nctv17.com/schedule/

Thus far, they appear less athletic than the top NESCAC teams.

They both look so unathletic and slow. How are they ranked in the top 5? Wow.

Oh, my!  I am SO pumped to see either IWU or NCC to face a NESCAC team!  My hunch is that you will see why they are ranked in the top 5.

And this is from a guy who has Amherst and Midd both in the top 5, and Williams in the top 10, on the Posters' Poll.  (Charles, I will not reveal where YOU voted IWU and NCC vs. the NESCAC teams in the Posters' Poll! )

Mr. Yipsi, Illinois Wesleyan has already played a NESCAC team. They beat Tufts 71-62 in November at a tournament at Wash U. Tufts led that game by 7 with 5:40 to play, but only made one more field goal the rest of the way, and IWU outscored them 19-3 over that period. The Titans looked even better in the loss last night against North Central. Going into that game they were 13-0 in the CCIW and trying to become the first CCIW team to go undefeated in conference play since Augastana in 1973.

No idea why Charles thought either team looked unathletic. No doubt he thinks Wesleyan would make easy work of the Titans or North Central. To compare IWU to another midwest school, I thought the Titans resembled a more talented version of last year's (and possibly this year's) Scranton team, which knocked Middlebury off in the Sweet 16. Both teams have/had great balance offensively: nobody averages more than 11.5 points per game for Illinois Wesleyan, but they have six players who average between 8 and 12 points per game. They're a really good passing team (15.3 assists per game) and they had great ball movement yesterday.

Teams that can get consistent scoring from multiple players, play good defense (IWU allows 61 ppg to opponents) and know how to win are tough outs. I wouldn't want to see this team until late in the tournament, if at all.

Very hard to tell from one part of the country to the other, but from watching the 2nd half last night I actually think that Willliams, Amherst, and Tufts would all match up very well with them. I can only assume that since they hadan early season high ranking and haven't really lost that they just seemed to stay highly ranked, where a school like MIT which was highly ramked and lost some games really dropped. Early season rankings tend to be the team from last year until voters can watch more games.

Charles, you're right Tufts would (and did) match up really well with IWU. As for Williams, Amherst (and Middlebury), top 10 teams do tend to match up well against other teams.

As for the voters, you couldn't be further off. IWU was one minute away from achieving something no CCIW school had achieved since 1973. If you want some kind of context for that, visit the d3hoops website where readers voted the CCIW as the most impressive conference to go unbeaten in the regular season. (Keep in mind that unlike the NESCAC all CCIW teams play each other twice, once at home and once on the road). Finally, IWU is 21-3 on the season while MIT is 20-4. The voters clearly distinguished between two schools that were both highly ranked and lost games early in the season.