MBB: NESCAC

[nescac1]

I'm not sure what your point is, Frank.  That post is from a college recruiting blog.  Are there scores of more talented basketball players who don't attend college at all than Robinson?  Yes, of course there are.  Are there many more talented basketball players that DO attend and play hoops at college (the focus of a college recruiting blog, which doesn't really care about non-college-bound players) at a non-scholarship school than Robinson?  I'm guessing the answer is no.  Every year there are a handful of D-1 level guys who play D-3 ball (NESCAC has had more than a few over the years, Amherst probably has a few D-1 talents on its roster right now, in fact).  The point is, few guys with D-1 ability play college ball at a non-scholarship level. 

[Charles]

I'm not sure what your point is, Frank.  That post is from a college recruiting blog.  Are there scores of more talented basketball players who don't attend college at all than Robinson?  Yes, of course there are.  Are there many more talented basketball players that DO attend and play hoops at college (the focus of a college recruiting blog, which doesn't really care about non-college-bound players) at a non-scholarship school than Robinson?  I'm guessing the answer is no.  Every year there are a handful of D-1 level guys who play D-3 ball (NESCAC has had more than a few over the years, Amherst probably has a few D-1 talents on its roster right now, in fact).  The point is, few guys with D-1 ability play college ball at a non-scholarship level.

Couldn't be more wrong. There are many players playing D3 basketball that could play at the scholarship level. Typically when a kid looks at education v. playing time they could just as easliy choose a none scholarship level school.

[nescac1]

Ummm, wrong Charles.  In retrospect, there are a lot of guys in D-3 who could have been effective D-1 players.  Hindsight is 20-20, and of course, a lot of players develop late.  But very, very few of the thousands of D-3 players in fact received and turned down D-1 scholarship offers (more turned down D-2, but still not an enormous number).  It happens, but it is extraordinarily rare.  So far as I am aware even Robinson didn't receive a D-1 scholarship offer before he picked Williams (although I imagine he would receive several now if he was so inclined).  I can think of only one recent Williams player (and Williams is a team which featured more all-American players, I believe, than any other school over the past five years) who I am certain received a D-1 scholarship offer, and that was one offer, from a low-level program. 

I remember for example some discussion of Aaron Toomey when he picked Amherst, regarding how a lot of D-1 schools were missing out because they weren't offering him scholarships (I think he may have had some walk-on offers, maybe one low D-1 offer, but they weren't knocking down his door).  Now, do I think Toomey could contribute at many D-1 schools right now?  I do.  But that doesn't mean he turned down loads (or even any) D-1 scholarship offers to pick Amherst.  It's the difference between BASKETBALL ability to play D-1 and ACTUAL ability, based on a scholarship offer, to have the OPPORTUNITY to play D-1.   

You hear a lot about D-1 "interest" for D-3 players.  Interest does not = a scholarship offer.  Even among the elite players in D-3, few of them turned down a D-1 scholarship opportunity in favor of D-3.  Not to say it doesn't happen, but it's very, very rare.  And I am a huge D-3 advocate who believes plenty of guys would be better off turning down the chance to ride the pine for three years at a D-1 school in favor of starring early on for a D-3 school, getting a great education, and securing a bright future off the court.  But the lure of D-1 is almost impossible to pass up for kids who are good enough to receive a scholarship offer -- unsurprisingly, because to get to that level, a kid by definition must have spent hour after hour honing his craft on the court. 

[frank uible]

The point is that the blogger's statement either was carelssly crafted so that it was substantally too sweeping or was intentionally created full of fecal material or was something in between. If you like, you can choose what you believe.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Ummm, wrong Charles.  In retrospect, there are a lot of guys in D-3 who could have been effective D-1 players.  Hindsight is 20-20, and of course, a lot of players develop late.  But very, very few of the thousands of D-3 players in fact received and turned down D-1 scholarship offers (more turned down D-2, but still not an enormous number).  It happens, but it is extraordinarily rare.  So far as I am aware even Robinson didn't receive a D-1 scholarship offer before he picked Williams (although I imagine he would receive several now if he was so inclined).  I can think of only one recent Williams player (and Williams is a team which featured more all-American players, I believe, than any other school over the past five years) who I am certain received a D-1 scholarship offer, and that was one offer, from a low-level program. 

I remember for example some discussion of Aaron Toomey when he picked Amherst, regarding how a lot of D-1 schools were missing out because they weren't offering him scholarships (I think he may have had some walk-on offers, maybe one low D-1 offer, but they weren't knocking down his door).  Now, do I think Toomey could contribute at many D-1 schools right now?  I do.  But that doesn't mean he turned down loads (or even any) D-1 scholarship offers to pick Amherst.  It's the difference between BASKETBALL ability to play D-1 and ACTUAL ability, based on a scholarship offer, to have the OPPORTUNITY to play D-1.   

You hear a lot about D-1 "interest" for D-3 players.  Interest does not = a scholarship offer.  Even among the elite players in D-3, few of them turned down a D-1 scholarship opportunity in favor of D-3.  Not to say it doesn't happen, but it's very, very rare.  And I am a huge D-3 advocate who believes plenty of guys would be better off turning down the chance to ride the pine for three years at a D-1 school in favor of starring early on for a D-3 school, getting a great education, and securing a bright future off the court.  But the lure of D-1 is almost impossible to pass up for kids who are good enough to receive a scholarship offer -- unsurprisingly, because to get to that level, a kid by definition must have spent hour after hour honing his craft on the court.

It is a bit more common than you are indicating. I know teams with players that were either getting looks from D1s or flat out turned them down for D3 schools instead. It happens with more regularity in the Midwest as a few championship teams from that region have featured players who have turned down D1 opportunities. There are also some teams on the east coast.

I am not saying it is wide-spread or prevalent... but it happens maybe far more than you are giving it credit. Usually the two deciding factors are playing time and education - though for two brothers on the Catholic team, I don't know their decision to turn down Ivy league chances for CUA.

[nescac1]

Fair enough, Dave.  I certainly know less about the midwest where apparently it is more prevalent.  Charles seemed to be suggesting that it was "typical" for a player to choose D-3 over a D-1 scholarship opportunity, and I've just not heard of that happening very often, certainly not in NESCAC, which has one of the strongest talent pools in D-3.  Some kids will on occasion turn down an Ivy (still not a scholarship, but D-1) or a Patriot League school (sometimes scholarships, sometimes not) for a NESCAC school, but even that is pretty unusual, not more than a few NESCAC recruits, in total, per year.  But again, a LOT of NESCAC guys ... in recent years Sharry, Whittington, Wang (who did have at least one D-1 scholarship offer), Schultz, Workman, Toomey, Kizell, Mayer all come to mind ... would have likely been effective D-1 players, in many cases they were just late bloomers or D-1 schools missed the boat due to concerns about, typically, height or athleticism.   

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Yeah - it is certainly not typical and my reference to Ivy was certainly not well thought out in terms of scholarships... but there is always a few players talked about nationally who didn't take D1 as an option and elected for D3. In fact, I turned down D1 scholarships in soccer to be the back-up goalie at my alma mater, Goucher... okay... that isn't even close to realistic... but it was fun to dream.

[grabtherim]

Fair enough, Dave.  I certainly know less about the midwest where apparently it is more prevalent.  Charles seemed to be suggesting that it was "typical" for a player to choose D-3 over a D-1 scholarship opportunity, and I've just not heard of that happening very often, certainly not in NESCAC, which has one of the strongest talent pools in D-3.  Some kids will on occasion turn down an Ivy (still not a scholarship, but D-1) or a Patriot League school (sometimes scholarships, sometimes not) for a NESCAC school, but even that is pretty unusual, not more than a few NESCAC recruits, in total, per year.  But again, a LOT of NESCAC guys ... in recent years Sharry, Whittington, Wang (who did have at least one D-1 scholarship offer), Schultz, Workman, Toomey, Kizell, Mayer all come to mind ... would have likely been effective D-1 players, in many cases they were just late bloomers or D-1 schools missed the boat due to concerns about, typically, height or athleticism.   

Plenty of D3 players could play at mid major D1 programs, especially at guard where the separation when they are 18 is not as great as a big that might develop or grow while he is at a D3 school.  Case in point on the guard side is Toomey who would be of unquestioned value at an Ivy or Patriot level school.  On the big guy front, think of Locke.  With what he became versus what he was when he arrived at Middlebury, many D1 coaches would have loved having that guy on their roster.  Honestly, I have been so wrapped up in enjoying the comp at this level that I really could care less, and once in school, I'm sure the athletes pretty much feel the same way.  Here is another nice take on the D3 experience.
http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/4/fenno-catholic-university-excels-true-student-athl/

[jumpshot]

I lean toward Nescac1's view of reality. Unless one has watched good D1 hoops in person and up close (and everything that goes with it) over time or played against that level of competition, it is hard to understand the intensity, physical strength, and athleticism required, even in the Patriot or Ivy League. D1 recruiters are not casual in awarding limited scholarships.

There are many examples of players who would have made a better choice by going D3 rather than allowing themselves to be seduced by D1.

[amh63]

Against my better judgement, I will add some comments to the present discussion topic....that has no real "tidy" answers.
First..tHere was in the not so distant past a transfer from Brown to Amherst.  the transfer had a game or two of note in his FY at Brown.  In his time at Amherst, IMO, he did not make any impact to the team....was not a starter even.  He did not seem to improve over the years.
Second...Div 1 talent level varies greatly between say the Ivy schools and Patriot League Schools and mid-level scholarship schools like the College of William & Mary and an ACC school.  Several years ago,  Harvard brought in its present coach who played/coached/recruited at Duke.  He did not win friends when he quickly told many of the returning players not to come out.  The coach recruited his view of Div 1 players...players that could win in and out of the Ivy League.
The present coach  at Boston College is having a tough tIme winning in the ACC.  Yet, he was quite successful at Cornell where he recruited talented "Div1" level players.

[middhoops]

I once asked a highly successful D3 coach if he/she got basketball players that slid down from D1.  The answer was, "Never happens.  Athletes want to play at the highest level  they get recruited for."
This is not to say that (eventual) D1 talent doesn't slip to Amherst and Williams. 

[TheHerst2and4]

just some clean up to Amh63's post above:
Adolphe Coulibaly is the transfer player mentioned. He did in fact start for the 2006-2007 National Championship team for the first part of the season before he unfortunately had to deal with a family tragedy back home in Africa. He returned to the team later in the season but was a bit out of sync
Tommy Amaker was an assistant at Duke, but prior to the move to Harvard was the head coach of Michigan.

I will stay out of the D-1 to D-3 debate, as the closest I ever got to a D-1 court was upper loge seating...
Having played with/against players at all three levels, I appreciate the arguments on both sides.
Another question for discussion: Division 2 the third best option? Do student-athletes say, I'm going to shoot for division 1, and if I don't get that opportunity I can receive a fine education and play at a competitive level at division 3? I know each player's situation is different and many may accept a division 2 scholarship for financial reasons, I'm well aware of this. I also recognize that as a whole Division 2 is likely stronger than Division 3.
For pure discussion purposes, is the quality of basketball that much better at division 2?
If so, is this a relatively new trend? I'll defer to the posters with more experience than I..
Frank I understand the point you are trying to get across, and recognize the trademark tone behind your post might not sit well with some. Every year players are hyped and we pull the wait and see approach to determine their ultimate worth. I can just assure you having seen Duncan Robinson play, I am not looking forward to his tenure at Williams.

[Charles]

Fair enough, Dave.  I certainly know less about the midwest where apparently it is more prevalent.  Charles seemed to be suggesting that it was "typical" for a player to choose D-3 over a D-1 scholarship opportunity, and I've just not heard of that happening very often, certainly not in NESCAC, which has one of the strongest talent pools in D-3.  Some kids will on occasion turn down an Ivy (still not a scholarship, but D-1) or a Patriot League school (sometimes scholarships, sometimes not) for a NESCAC school, but even that is pretty unusual, not more than a few NESCAC recruits, in total, per year.  But again, a LOT of NESCAC guys ... in recent years Sharry, Whittington, Wang (who did have at least one D-1 scholarship offer), Schultz, Workman, Toomey, Kizell, Mayer all come to mind ... would have likely been effective D-1 players, in many cases they were just late bloomers or D-1 schools missed the boat due to concerns about, typically, height or athleticism.   

Please don't misquote me. I wrote" There are many players playing D3 basketball that could play at the scholarship level."

[nescac1]

Charles you took what I said out of context (I was talking about the recruiting context, not whether certain guys end up turning out good enough to play D-1, but rather they had the opportunity to do so out of high school), so turnabout WOULD be fair play. 

But in all events, you omitted the second half of your quote: "Typically when a kid looks at education v. playing time they could just as easliy choose a none scholarship level school."  I read this to mean (and correct me if I'm wrong) that in the TYPICAL case, a D-3 player should have chosen to attend a D-1 school on scholarhip.  Whether it's merely rare, or exceedingly rare, I think we can all agree that it is not "typical" for a D-3 player to have turned down a D-1 scholarship offer in favor of more PT at a D-3 school. 

[NEhoops]

The comment that Duncan Robinson is the best non-division I player in the NEPSAC sounds right to me. The thought that he is the best non-division I player in the class of 2013 is way off base. He should make an impact at Williams, but we are all quick to project how effectively first years will perform, but at the same time we seem to forget how tough the adjustment period is.

High level division III teams need to be recruiting division I and II type players to continue to be successful year in and year out. The act of offering a scholarship is sometimes the only way of measuring how interested a team really is, but if a player is still talking with division I and II programs late in the process then they are "scholarship type players." One of the players in that pool might get a full scholarship to a high major school, while the other might be a walk-on at an Ivy league institution. His abilities at that level cant truly be evaluated until after his career.   

The biggest difference between division II and division III (most specifically the Northeast-10 and the NESCAC) is that the division II players across the board are stronger and quicker. In most cases they are better defenders and can guard multiple positions. Most teams have alot of wings players, not such a traditional position breakdown that there is in the NESCAC. Ultimately, the best shooters/passers/ball handlers in the NESCAC are as good if not better as their counterparts in the NE-10