MBB: NESCAC

[frank uible]

TheHerst: This year I have decided to forego the benefits, and to avoid the burdens, of running for public office or attempting to sell aluminum siding - despite these delicious pursuits being my two lifelong callings.

[nescac1]

I don't think that anyone could or would claim any particular player (including Robinson) is the best non-D1 player in the class of 2013.  None of us have remotely the type of knowledge to compare the top recruits in NESCAC even against one another, let alone vs. players we have never heard of in the midwest. 

I think NEHoops is right.  The only D1 vs. D3 game I saw in person was when the 2004 Williams College team (an elite D-3 team) beat a Holy Cross team which, while certainly a below-average D1 team, was also far from the worst team in D1.  Williams simply could not match Holy Cross's size, strength, and athleticism, it was not close in that regard, and Holy Cross just dominated the glass with their height and jumping ability.  But the Williams players were much better shooters and just as skilled ball-handlers, if not moreso, enabling the victory.  There are a few guys I've seen over the years in NESCAC who are basically D-1 style players in terms of their combo of size/strength/athleticism ... Troy Whittington, Willy Workman, Allen Williamson all come immediately to mind, Nolan Thompson could definitely guard D-1 guys  ... while there are innumerable guys in D-3 who have ball skills and shooting ability needed to play D-1, but would just get destroyed athletically by bigger, faster guys who would be able to shut them down based on sheer athleticism.   I think D-1 coaches will typically forgive some deficiency in a player's skill set, but are typically far less forgiving when recruiting players who aren't elite in at least one of size, quickness, strength, or leaping ability. 

[Panthernation]

I don't think that anyone could or would claim any particular player (including Robinson) is the best non-D1 player in the class of 2013.  None of us have remotely the type of knowledge to compare the top recruits in NESCAC even against one another, let alone vs. players we have never heard of in the midwest. 

I think NEHoops is right.  The only D1 vs. D3 game I saw in person was when the 2004 Williams College team (an elite D-3 team) beat a Holy Cross team which, while certainly a below-average D1 team, was also far from the worst team in D1.  Williams simply could not match Holy Cross's size, strength, and athleticism, it was not close in that regard, and Holy Cross just dominated the glass with their height and jumping ability.  But the Williams players were much better shooters and just as skilled ball-handlers, if not moreso, enabling the victory.  There are a few guys I've seen over the years in NESCAC who are basically D-1 style players in terms of their combo of size/strength/athleticism ... Troy Whittington, Willy Workman, Allen Williamson all come immediately to mind, Nolan Thompson could definitely guard D-1 guys  ... while there are innumerable guys in D-3 who have ball skills and shooting ability needed to play D-1, but would just get destroyed athletically by bigger, faster guys who would be able to shut them down based on sheer athleticism.   I think D-1 coaches will typically forgive some deficiency in a player's skill set, but are typically far less forgiving when recruiting players who aren't elite in at least one of size, quickness, strength, or leaping ability.

Middlebury had two in their front court on the Final 4 team in Sharry and Locke.

[nescac1]

Sharry and Locke are both good examples of late bloomers who never would have gotten a serious look from a D-1 school and didn't have D-1 ability even as frosh, but by their senior years, thanks to tremendous growth as players, could certainly have been solid D-1 contributors.

Preview from Catholic of the game vs. Williams:

http://www.d3hoops.com/seasons/men/2012-13/contrib/20130307c81thc

Catholic seems to be very good at two things.  They have an incredibly stingy defense, and they rarely turn the ball over.  Williams rarely forces turnovers and even in games they win, almost never has more FGA's than opponents.  The Ephs will no doubt have to continue to do the two things they typically do in victories to beat Catholic: draw a lot more fouls than they commit (and hit more foul shots accordingly) and out-shoot their opponents by a substantial margin.  I think the Ephs will do a better job defending vs. Catholic's offense then they did vs. Wesley, Wesley posed some real match-up problems for the Ephs.  But Wesley's defense was not great, and the Ephs will undoubtedly have a tougher time getting open looks vs. Catholic.  I guarantee that Catholic won't consistently leave Klemm wide open for corner threes, for example.  If Williams can score 75 points or more I really like their chances in this game, but that won't be easy vs. a team that gives up an average of only 58.  I think that the Ephs will need Mayer and Robertson to create a lot more offense, individually, vs. Catholic than they did vs. Wesley ... both of those guys basically facilitated the offense last game because other guys were able to consistently get a lot of space.  I'd also keep going to Epley in the post, where he has become a really big weapon. 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

The best non-d1 player in the class of 2013 is going to a JUCO somewhere because his grades weren't good enough.

[amh63]

Checked the Amherst website.....there seems to be a light dusting of snow and heavy overcast.  The FY quad roadways and walkways are clear.  Expect the WBB teams are here and practicing....travel from the upper NY area is ??.  Hope the men's team is here or on its way. 
How is it up in Williamstown?
Do the Middlebury team leave today....yet?

[Charles]

The best non-d1 player in the class of 2013 is going to a JUCO somewhere because his grades weren't good enough.

for what it's worth most of their grades aren't good enough. I have seen it all.

[madzillagd]

Been on the road so I didn't get a chance to chime in but having recently observed the D1/D2/D3 process the past few years it's definitely interesting to see what is valued at the different levels and the biggest thing to me is perception vs. reality.  Is a player truly a D1 level talent or are they perceived to be a D1 talent (thus becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy)?  A big part of that is the role they take on and how those around them such as their coaches feed into that.  Size, speed, athleticism clearly play a part and guys will be considered D1 players simply on that regardless of whether they know how to play the game.  But I think a lot of it has to do with being in the right situation at the right time. 

Here's my example.  Nephew played for a very good AAU team out of Spokane which won about 80% of their games.  Good squad that surprised a lot of teams around the country but not an elite squad.  Same coach/team that had Adam Morrison, David Pendergraft etc. so the coach has some good connections.  From my nephew's senior year, the players on the team ended up playing at: Washington St (D1), Montana St (D1), Idaho (D1), Montana (D1), Williams College (D3), Northwest Nazerene (D2), Norwest Nazerene (D2), Spokane CC (JC).  The starting lineup was 4 D1 players and a D3 player.  With 2 D2 guys and a JC guy (likely to go D2 in the future) coming off the bench.  Take a wild guess which kid on the team was the best passer, best defender, and was the all-around 'glue' guy.  I'll give you a hint, it wasn't the 6'7 215 lb 'shooter' that put up 15-20 shots a game but shot <20% from 3 that ended up at Wazzu. 

Were the D1 (or even D2) guys clearly better than the D3 player? Absolutely not.  Reality was my nephew was in the top 2-3 players on the team and when they are all seniors in college I have no doubt he'll be in the top 1-2 players out of the group.  But it's perception vs. reality, the kid that played (poorly) at Wazzu will always be considered a better basketball player than my nephew because he played D1 vs D3. 

[Charles]

Been on the road so I didn't get a chance to chime in but having recently observed the D1/D2/D3 process the past few years it's definitely interesting to see what is valued at the different levels and the biggest thing to me is perception vs. reality.  Is a player truly a D1 level talent or are they perceived to be a D1 talent (thus becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy)?  A big part of that is the role they take on and how those around them such as their coaches feed into that.  Size, speed, athleticism clearly play a part and guys will be considered D1 players simply on that regardless of whether they know how to play the game.  But I think a lot of it has to do with being in the right situation at the right time. 

Here's my example.  Nephew played for a very good AAU team out of Spokane which won about 80% of their games.  Good squad that surprised a lot of teams around the country but not an elite squad.  Same coach/team that had Adam Morrison, David Pendergraft etc. so the coach has some good connections.  From my nephew's senior year, the players on the team ended up playing at: Washington St (D1), Montana St (D1), Idaho (D1), Montana (D1), Williams College (D3), Northwest Nazerene (D2), Norwest Nazerene (D2), Spokane CC (JC).  The starting lineup was 4 D1 players and a D3 player.  With 2 D2 guys and a JC guy (likely to go D2 in the future) coming off the bench.  Take a wild guess which kid on the team was the best passer, best defender, and was the all-around 'glue' guy.  I'll give you a hint, it wasn't the 6'7 215 lb 'shooter' that put up 15-20 shots a game but shot <20% from 3 that ended up at Wazzu. 

Were the D1 (or even D2) guys clearly better than the D3 player? Absolutely not.  Reality was my nephew was in the top 2-3 players on the team and when they are all seniors in college I have no doubt he'll be in the top 1-2 players out of the group.  But it's perception vs. reality, the kid that played (poorly) at Wazzu will always be considered a better basketball player than my nephew because he played D1 vs D3.

it's all about being able to dunk in layup lines. nothing else really matters (unless you're a real top player) sat with countless  D1 coaches at AAU and prep school games. plenty of 20 loss D1 teams with players that stink, but they get a free education. for many it is a waste of the colleges money.

[nescac1]

It's probably impossible to utilize in the recruiting context just because I'm not sure how you could adjust for strength of competition, which is so insanely variable at the high school level ...  but, I wonder if any D-1 coaches (D-3 coaches would not have the recruiting budgets to do so) employ advanced statistical metrics like those which are in vogue in the NBA to assist in scouting which high school players to offer scholarships to ...

[walzy31]

http://www.ecacsports.com/sports/winter/mbkb/AllStars/2012-13/2013MBBallstars

Perhaps putting an end to the Thompson Vs. Toomey/Workman/Mayer debate?

[madzillagd]

MIT gets 2 players on and WPI gets none.


<runs over to NEWMAC board to watch the upcoming war of words>

[magicman]

Checked the Amherst website.....there seems to be a light dusting of snow and heavy overcast.  The FY quad roadways and walkways are clear.  Expect the WBB teams are here and practicing....travel from the upper NY area is ??.  Hope the men's team is here or on its way. 
How is it up in Williamstown?
Do the Middlebury team leave today....yet?

amh63,
Plattsburgh State left the North Country around 6 PM on Thursday night and probably arrived at their hotel in the Amherst area sometime around midnight to 1:00 AM early Friday morning. There were no weather issues in Northern New York on Thursday or today. Game time 22 hours and 52 minutes away. It's been a long wait.

[lefrakenstein]

http://www.ecacsports.com/sports/winter/mbkb/AllStars/2012-13/2013MBBallstars

Perhaps putting an end to the Thompson Vs. Toomey/Workman/Mayer debate?

I'm sure this ECAC release (really, the ECAC is still a thing?) will cause the Panthernation guys to come to Jesus (played, in this instance, by Aaron Toomey), realize the error of their ways, and swear off Nolan Thompson treatises forever.

[Bucket]

http://www.ecacsports.com/sports/winter/mbkb/AllStars/2012-13/2013MBBallstars

Perhaps putting an end to the Thompson Vs. Toomey/Workman/Mayer debate?

I'm sure this ECAC release (really, the ECAC is still a thing?) will cause the Panthernation guys to come to Jesus (played, in this instance, by Aaron Toomey), realize the error of their ways, and swear off Nolan Thompson treatises forever.

I, for one, thought Willy Workman should have been player of the year, but not because of this ECAC nonsense. I'd take Nolan Thompson over Sedale Jones or Darius Watson, hands down. (Having seen Nolan play against both Jones and Watson.) It seems to me that whomever picked these ECAC teams made their choices solely by looking at ppg on a stat sheet.