MBB: NESCAC

grabtherim · March 11, 2013, 05:31:59 PM

Quote from: nescac1 on March 11, 2013, 05:24:55 PM
I wonder if someone will clue the Amherst broadcasters into this "controversy" and how, if at all, they will address it on the air. My guess: snark. One thing is for certain -- controversy = ratings, so I expect an additional, I don't know, 3-4 viewers tuning in to see how it all turns out ...

3-4 more viewers, very clever. I hope they don't change, as they are funny and refreshing to listen to. I loved it when they compared Williamson to NBA players. They are enthusiastic not mean spirited. Keep on giving those shout outs to your friends in the dorms. You are only in college once.

7express · March 11, 2013, 05:40:01 PM

I don't have a dog in the fight, but we should be happy that there's even video availiable anyways, and not a lot of schools have a broadcasting department so can you really be THAT mad if some junior and senior students have a touch of homerism?? If you don't like what the people are saying mute the broadcast.

FanJacket · March 11, 2013, 05:41:19 PM

Announcers may be on spring break with the rest of the student body??

amh63 · March 11, 2013, 05:53:12 PM

To posters who have moved on to other subjects like BB games and analyses, I will owe you apologies later. Pat C's post has ruined my planned day to read my stack of novels and IMO require another post on the matter of broadcasts/announcers at Williams and Amherst. As Pat has often remarked, "let us be frank here"......First, I appreciate what Pat and Dave have been doing for D3Hoops...especially in providing a somewhat insular forum for "CAC" posters to chat and argue about various sports. Thank you.
Pat Coleman......when posters make posts that puzzle me, I first ask the reason WHY?...followed by for what purpose/end point. Dave M. made several posts on this board recently about the quality of announcers. I asked myself the questions stated above and shook it off and even kidded him a little. When I read the "D3 Blog" addressing two college presidents on the subject, I will frankly state got mad. Where is he going with this and for what purpose! It was not only what was written but HOW it was stated....a "self imposed judge and jury" approach with selected "facts" with the "umbrella" implied support of NCAA owned broadcasts and some standards to be met that was not met. How self- righteous can a person be?
I posted my reply on the matter in a way that was "kind". I can take up the matter in person if it is necessary at another place and time.
After your post on the subject, and your "Suggestions" of what should be done and how a President of a College should prioritize the use of money, I have come to the conclusion that YOU and yes DAVE do not really understand the NESCAC in general and Amherst and Williams (maybe, I cannot speak for Williams here) in particular. You do not understand the relationship of the educational experience sought at these schools and the vital importance of athletics in the students to that educational experience. You should know that it is a conference that the Presidents only allowed selected TEAM sports to participate in the NCAA only after two "probational periods" and only relatively late in the long history of NCAA team tournaments.
I know based on your comments that you do NOT understand Amherst and sports at Amherst. If you did you would not have addressed the comments the way you did to the President. I will close by paraphrasing some comments. One former Amherst Prez, remarked that sports is the "sweatiest of the liberal arts". Amherst had the first athletic department in the land. It is a place where Amherst and Williams played the first college baseball game in the land (actually, in Pittsfield Ma.) Where football games are played on the 3rd oldest field in the land ( Wesleyan has the oldest field), where a famous alum and great athlete played football and went to medical school at Harvard....only to play for the Harvard football team and then went on to make medical history. The late great Amherst Coach DARP, when asked to have a football game broadcasted at Amherst...by a commercial firm (The Williams vs Amherst game...the fourth oldest played rival game)...responded NO. He did not want to change the time of the game for others. The football contest was for the Amherst community of students, alums and friends...people who understand....not necessary for the others outside the "CAC".
Enough said by me on the matter.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh · March 11, 2013, 06:05:10 PM

I think some people need to go back and read the letter all the way through again, because some of the bigger points are being missed.

First off, I do have my own company because I am a freelancer now after spending 11 1/2 years employed (and 14 years of my life) as a sports and news producer at the local ABC affiliate in Baltimore. So, I have a company... thus I work for myself and those who hire me... period. Stevenson has hired me to be their football play-by-play man and in men's lacrosse I am the producer/director for their video-stream broadcasts - which are staffed by nearly all students. I also was hired by McDaniel for 2/3s of the basketball season to help produce and direct their basketball video streams as well. Finally, I have been the public address announcer for my alma mater, Goucher College, for 18 years.

I have never approached Catholic to help with their broadcasts since I know they have something in place, though I also know they struggled with some consistency which was solved in the later half of the season. I was also welcomed when we asked if we could broadcast the Landmark title games at Catholic - which no one at CUA paid me to do.

I have also been approached by schools and reached out to many throughout over the years to help with NCAA tournament coverage understanding the interest and need of a video broadcast along with the requirements of the NCAA and Turner Sports.

Which get's me to this... I fully appreciate students calling games as each of us (as stated in the letter if you read it all) did in college years or shortly after (myself starting as the PA announcer). We understand it is an educational experience and one that students develop and continue to get better at. I am my own worse critic and will never think I have figured this all out or can't get better. My work at Stevenson will hopefully include some day mentoring students to do the same job and honestly if I lose my job to a student who has proven they can do a quality one... so be it and congratulations.

However, this is now the NCAA tournament and this is not the regular season. The broadcasts rights, as stated rather early in the letter, are owned by NCAA.com and Turner Sports and they have guidelines and regulations for how those are done. I didn't even get into the fact they want two cameras and preferably in HD (they understand if it is in SD and will grant exceptions for one camera if a school in writing asks for such a waiver).

But per those guidelines, again stated clearly in the letter, the broadcasters have to be more neutral than homers and they have to respect the teams, officials, players, etc. That simply is not on display per my letter and if people have to mute a broadcast to avoid over-the-top broadcasters who are not even following the NCAA and Turner Sport's guidelines and regulations, than there is a problem.

Also, it isn't like these schools have just added webstreams of games on the audio or video side... they have been doing this for years. Amherst and Williams are not new to this experience and with a major focus on them right now, I just wish broadcasts would live up to reasonable standards. This has actually caused outrage from former and current student broadcasters around DIvision III over the last few weeks or more. I have even heard complaints from Amherst and Williams parents per this letter that they wish the broadcasts were better.

I would love to go to Amherst and Williams and help them out if they so choose. I don't have any skin in the game in terms of making money on the deal because I understand the dynamics. I just hope to help schools improve or put in place what can be pretty simple to do with a tight budget. And my letter in now way is indicating I want them to hire me to come in and do the job (if that was the case, it wouldn't be an open letter and you wouldn't know about it).

I, like many others, are proud of the student-athletes, the programs, and all of those who support them including the broadcasters (again stated in the letter), but we are also very aware of how this division tends to be looked at by others and no one will take anyone seriously when broadcasters can't do a reasonable job of doing their jobs seriously. I am not looking for professionals to come in, but there is a learning experience and their is an educational component to these "jobs" on a college campus. Can't we then ask for higher quality when during the brightest time of year for the division, school, teams and players is now and broadcasters can't seem to live up to that magnitude nor the simple requirements clearly stated by the NCAA and Turner Sports?

(By the way, my father is a Wesleyan alum, I have several close relatives who have graduated from NESCAC schools, I went to school in northwestern Connecticut, my family lives in Maine, my relatives live in Massachusetts, I toured several NESCAC campuses including Amherst and Williams, and I was and still am mentored by an Amherst alum who is a very respected athletic director and former lacrosse coach - I am familiar with the NESCAC.)

lefrakenstein · March 11, 2013, 07:10:13 PM

I just disagree with associating homer-ism w/ low quality. I don't know much about the Turner Sports guidelines, but I think it will be a sad day when dIII games start getting treated like DI games. I'm sure some people don't feel this way, but I'm also sure that I'm not only one who would take this position.

As for the video itself, is the quality actually bad? Do a lot of schools have multiple, HD cameras? Also, is Turner Sports really allowed to tell a school that they have to go out and buy a second camera, or an HD camera? That would seem strange. No other Amherst or Williams webcast has gone down all year. If it really was due to an asteroid as amh63 suggests, I think that would make holding the schools accountable kind of silly.

Asteroids on d3hoops!! Talk about being far afield. I kind of want to watch Space Jam now. Wish this tournament weren't taking so long.

lefrakenstein · March 11, 2013, 07:57:18 PM

Oh man, I just found and read that letter. Talk about over-the-top.

This is it, for NESCAC people who haven't read it:
http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/

You realize these are students you're calling out, right? Students that are doing this in their spare time? And who have a ton of support from the community, the fans and the team itself? I completely disagree with your statement, "Amherst's broadcast makes it look like a frat house." The broadcast in no way sounds fratty. Since when is vocal support of a team fratty?

Also, while I grant that Amherst and Williams might not have the best broadcasts of any DIII school, they most certainly do not have the worst. And Dave, I'm sorry, but I've listened to your broadcasts. You might be neutral, but you are far from perfect. People in glass houses...

lefrakenstein · March 11, 2013, 08:19:31 PM

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 11, 2013, 06:05:10 PM
However, this is now the NCAA tournament and this is not the regular season. The broadcasts rights, as stated rather early in the letter, are owned by NCAA.com and Turner Sports and they have guidelines and regulations for how those are done. I didn't even get into the fact they want two cameras and preferably in HD (they understand if it is in SD and will grant exceptions for one camera if a school in writing asks for such a waiver).

But per those guidelines, again stated clearly in the letter, the broadcasters have to be more neutral than homers and they have to respect the teams, officials, players, etc. That simply is not on display per my letter and if people have to mute a broadcast to avoid over-the-top broadcasters who are not even following the NCAA and Turner Sport's guidelines and regulations, than there is a problem.

Is that actually true? The provision you cite in the letter says nothing about neutrality. This is the provision from your letter:

The Streaming Entity may not denigrate Turner, the NCAA, NCAA member institutions or teams, their players or officials, or any NCAA sport, and must comply in all respects with the NCAA bylaws, rules and regulations in effect, which may be amended from time to time by the NCAA in its sole discretion.

I highly doubt that it says anywhere in the NCAA bylaws/rules/regulations that the school announcers have to be neutral. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, I don't think anyone would say that the Amherst or Williams announcers have denigrated in any way the NCAA, any member institution, or any players/officials. From what I have heard, they are overwhelmingly positive, frequently complementing other players and teams.

lefrakenstein · March 11, 2013, 08:22:33 PM

Sorry, last thing. This is one of Pat's comments after the article:

Author comment by Pat Coleman · March 11, 2013 at 12:25 am

Great point — since I don't follow soccer as closely, Messiah's broadcasting tradition is not really on my radar.

For me, the seminal point in this discussion was when Williams fans started chanting "brutal webcast" at Amherst in the NESCAC final. That speaks volumes, that it was so bad people in the gym were hearing about it from their friends.

Did that chant actually happen? Could someone who was there comment?

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) · March 11, 2013, 08:23:35 PM

Quote from: lefrakenstein on March 11, 2013, 07:57:18 PM
Also, while I grant that Amherst and Williams might not have the best broadcasts of any DIII school, they most certainly do not have the worst.

I think, perhaps, Amherst and Williams are victims of their own success. Perhaps, as an outsider, I have a skewed view of the mighty NESCAC world, but I doubt there's anything else related to campus life where either school would be happy to be described as "not the worst."

I expect more from the school that produced President James A. Garfield!

maineman · March 11, 2013, 09:05:42 PM

Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 11, 2013, 11:16:34 AM
I bet they would be fans of a better webcast as well. It doesn't actually cost money to mentor and guide your student broadcasters. This deep into the NCAA Tournament, this service is relied upon by fans who are hundreds, sometimes thousands of miles away. This puts a bad face on the institution, and I doubt that an administrator would allow it to continue if made aware.

At least these schools have webcasts. I relied on the Cortland webcast and was disappointed when it was scratched. Had I known it was so iffy, I would have booked a hotel and headed out in the car. When you find out at game time that the webcast is not available, it's too late to drive. When the school put out a press release on its website that there will be a webcast, they need to do the "due diligence" to get the game on the web for the benefit of those that are "relying" on it. If they can't maybe they shouldn't host.

frank uible · March 11, 2013, 09:08:14 PM

Does each of us feel better now that stuff is hopefully out of his system? If not, please take a dose of milk of magnesia.

Pat Coleman · March 11, 2013, 09:44:55 PM

Quote from: lefrakenstein on March 11, 2013, 08:22:33 PM
Sorry, last thing. This is one of Pat's comments after the article:

Author comment by Pat Coleman · March 11, 2013 at 12:25 am

Great point — since I don't follow soccer as closely, Messiah's broadcasting tradition is not really on my radar.

For me, the seminal point in this discussion was when Williams fans started chanting "brutal webcast" at Amherst in the NESCAC final. That speaks volumes, that it was so bad people in the gym were hearing about it from their friends.

Did that chant actually happen? Could someone who was there comment?

The Amherst broadcasters themselves commented on the air at the time. Hopefully that counts.

toad22 · March 11, 2013, 09:45:22 PM

I'd prefer to focus on the games, but this whole discussion seems way more strident than it needs to be. I would be very happy if the Amherst and Williams broadcasts/telecasts were of a higher quality, and the students on air took it more seriously. The schools probably don't care very much, and the students may never become committed enough to produce interesting shows. If the NCAA cares about this stuff in their tournament, they may need to take a firm hand. I hope they don't, but that is not my call. It is their tournament. They pay all the costs. The d3 hoops guys are all great, and have transformed d3 athletics. I have nothing but thanks to them for this transformation. All of d3 now has a real home (it isn't the NCAA).

lefrakenstein · March 11, 2013, 09:55:08 PM

Quote from: toad22 on March 11, 2013, 09:45:22 PM
I'd prefer to focus on the games, but this whole discussion seems way more strident than it needs to be.

Sorry for contributing to the strident-ness. The tone of the letter, though, and the fact that it was apparently sent to the Presidents of both colleges, is pretty strident. Anyway, I'd be happy to move on to basketball. And Frank I, for one, do feel better. Thanks for indulging me.