MBB: NESCAC

[nescac1]

Lots more good comparison.  Lynch-Z-Bo is dead-on.  I will also co-sign on Klemm/Korver, Green/J.R. Smith and Killian/Dudley.  For Kalema, I'd say Eric Bledsoe. 

For Nate Robertson, gotta be young Jason Kidd ... a big, penetrating, pass-first point guard who gets a lot of steals and has a questionable jumper. 

A few more for some Ephs of yore:
Harlan Dodson -- Steve Novak
Chuck Abba -- Dan Majerle
Geoff Chapin -- Patrick Ewing

While he's not (yet) an NBA player, I bet that Dave Paulsen would endorse a Mike Muscala / Ben Coffin comparison.  Muscala is basically Coffin with two more inches, a bit more athleticism, and more shooting range.  Although of course Coffin was a lot more dominant in D-3 than Muscala will be in the NBA.  So he's more like the Coffin of D-1. 

Guys for whom there seems to be no poor man's version from NESCAC lore ... not surprising given how unusual their games are/were: Lebron, Jordan, Magic, Durant, Garnett, Olajuwon. 

[frank uible]

What modern day NESCAC athlete has been so versatile that Frankie Baumholtz is his doppelganger?

[madzillagd]

Oh and hot Norwegian/Scandanavian blonde coeds (that's not a typo).

But the hot and SMART Norwegians go to Cal Lutheran to be in the fantastic weather of Southern California.  I know because I married one.

[middhoops]

I lived half a mile from the Cal Lutheran campus.  You are SO right.

[amh63]

Got my tickets to the games.  Had trouble getting any tickets to a particular section that may be reserved for a particular school.....as in previous years.  Must be due to the fact that there are 8 teams.  Can not talk to a human even on the matter.  Wanted to point out that the times of the contest are posted for the Friday games.  Williams game is at Noon!  Will miss that one....too early.   Amherst's game is at 5:30 PM.  there goes early supper.  Middlebury is at 800 something.
Will post on BB later during thus "dead" period.   Suggest that there maybe other NBA players...that go back into the 60's and 70's....such as Dave Bing, Elgin Baylor, players from the great Celtic and Knicks clubs.  Oh I forgot the ages of the posters here.

[frank uible]

It was surprising that no one mentioned The Cooz.  On the other hand for the fans of the 50s Cousy was incomparable and therefore was appropriately omitted.

[survive and advance]

Lots more good comparison.  Lynch-Z-Bo is dead-on.  I will also co-sign on Klemm/Korver, Green/J.R. Smith and Killian/Dudley.  For Kalema, I'd say Eric Bledsoe. 

For Nate Robertson, gotta be young Jason Kidd ... a big, penetrating, pass-first point guard who gets a lot of steals and has a questionable jumper. 

A few more for some Ephs of yore:
Harlan Dodson -- Steve Novak
Chuck Abba -- Dan Majerle
Geoff Chapin -- Patrick Ewing

While he's not (yet) an NBA player, I bet that Dave Paulsen would endorse a Mike Muscala / Ben Coffin comparison.  Muscala is basically Coffin with two more inches, a bit more athleticism, and more shooting range.  Although of course Coffin was a lot more dominant in D-3 than Muscala will be in the NBA.  So he's more like the Coffin of D-1. 

Guys for whom there seems to be no poor man's version from NESCAC lore ... not surprising given how unusual their games are/were: Lebron, Jordan, Magic, Durant, Garnett, Olajuwon.

Agree with you on a young Jason Kidd being a more accurate comparison for Nate Robertson. Would also like to redact my Toomey/Steph Curry comparison- in favor of Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf, who, politics aside, was one of the most dynamic and underrated NBA combo guards of the 1990's. If you have a minute or two, watch a little of this video. Lots of similarities to the way Toomey makes decisions after the using the high ball screen to initiate Amherst's offense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e93l5so7f9s&feature=player_embedded

Additionally, in a previous post, I likened Colby's Adam Choice to a NESCAC version of Kevin Durant. This comparison may be overly complimentary of Choice's skill set, but, in defense of my logic, I can't think of a player from the past 10 or so years that has come close to possessing Choice's combination of comparatively (that is to say, comparatively: in the sense of comparing Choice's game to his 'CAC contemporaries, during this 10-15 year time period) elite level size for his position (the 3), length, athleticism, and overall scoring ability-- all while doing the bulk of his damage as a "perimeter scorer," as opposed to a guy that possesses similarly described physical tools, but does most of his damage operating from the interior block. The only other players that immediately come to mind that fit this mold during this period are both Lord Jeffs- Fletcher Walters and Brain Bauskaskas, but I'll take Choice over those guys if all 3 are still left on the All Time 'CAC Draft Big Board.

My knowledge of NESCAC hoops is not as vast and historical as some of the board's other seasoned veteran posters, so unfortunately, I would know very few names of conference players prior to 10-15 years ago. With that being said, please excuse me while I continue to entertain myself....

With the fist overall pick in the Historically Comparative 1998-2013 'CAC Draft, (___) selects....

IMO- You have to go with one of the great Bigs.. Coffin, Zieja. Stone, Rhoten, Cohen, Whittington, Sharry, Locke, Mayer
..But maybe your preference and managerial style calls for you to build your team from the Guard up (see what I did there?): a la Olson, Crotty, Rudin, Zak Ray, Schultz, Toomey, Kizel, or maybe a more versatile scorer like Schiel, Wheeler, Schultz, Choice, or Workman? All great players in their own right, and an argument could be made for most of them.

I think the answer has to be Troy Whittington-- just way too many "man amongst boys" and "Holy Moses" types of flashes/performances. Just a beast, plain and simple. And.. in case you couldn't tell, I enjoy this exercise.

[Bombers798891]

What i really didn't understand is what the heck was Ithaca's coaching strategy down the stretch?  With a minute left, Midd ball, Ithaca not yet in the bonus, and Midd up I think one, Ithaca started intentionally fouling.  Huh?  Why not just play defense and try to get a stop ... even if Midd scores, you can still tie with a three, and if they don't, you have the ball with a chance to win.  Now, it almost paid off since Midd missed a few front-end of one-and-ones, but it was one of the weirdest coaching decisions I've ever seen.  Not only did they not even try to get a defensive top, they ended up eating up a ton of game clock since they had so many fouls to give.  Utterly inexplicable.

I wanted to chime in with a guess (was out of town so missed the chance to earlier)

It's possible Ithaca's strategy was affected by Midd's unconscious three-point shooting. Wolfin and Thompson were both 6-of-10 from three. You have to get your team into the bonus quickly because if Midd hits another three after say 25 seconds (a possibility) then you're down four and you're really behind the eight ball. Even if you hit a three quick, you're down to maybe 25-30 seconds left and still down and now it's a race against the clock just to foul. Normally, I'd say play for the stop, but I don't mind fouling there if the goal is to give you options to extend the game later. You can almost always make up points, but never clock.

Tough loss for IC, but Midd made the smart play and went after Oztemel, who, while a great 4-year player, was probably IC's weakest defender. Overall, a great game between 2 great teams, and the better team won.

(And yes, fouls are fouls regardless of when or where they occur.)

[grabtherim]

Hard not to appreeciate a league which puts 3 teams in the Sweet 16.  The Middlebury win was all about guts and players stepping up when the moment called for it. That has been this team's MO for years now.  Jensen played his best game as a Panther yesterday.  7/7 from the line and had the biggest rebound of the season for Midd late.  Lynch was bottled up for much of the game, so what does he do late? Hit the winnning basket.  Wolfin proves once again that Senior leadership is all about leading.  He goes O-fer shooting in the 1st half, but Midd still has a 9 pt half time lead.  Cortland who is a fine team, turns it around and goes up 7 with 6 or so to play. At this point many players with that bad shooting ringing in their head would run away from the ball.  In one of the key moments of the game, he drains a 3 late in a possession, then ten seconds later picks a Cortland guards pocket and makes a hard semi breakaway layup.  Midd is now down 2 and it becomes a one possession game the rest of the way until the very end.  Thompson hit some big shots and played good D on a kid who can score as well as anyone Midd saw all season.  Kizel did what he seems to do every night, find a way to get his when it looks like he cant.  He has a knack for the big shot or creating chicken salad out of chicken you know what.  No one knows what next week or beyond holds for any of these teams.  Hey, I would like to see another trip to Salem and beyond, but this team has given Panther fans everything you can ask for: the willingness to let it all hangout no matter the circumstances and see where it takes you.     

To add to what I said last week, it is impossible not to appreciate a conference which put 3 teams in the Elite 8.  Big props to Williams and Amherst, but I am a Panther backer and what I saw yesterday surpassed what these Panthers showed at Cortland which I for one thought would be darn near impossible to do. What I appreciate most about this group is that there is no one or even two go to guys.  This is a team which has a full rotation of important contributers.  Dare Wolfin to shoot early?  OK, he accepted the challenge and forced Ithaca out of the triangle and 2.  Leave Thompson open?  OK, like Wolfin he hits the biggest of 3-pointers going 6/10 from beyond the arc as Wolfin did.  Drive inside on Roberts? Find the ball coming right back at you.  Test Peter with the clutchest of free throws when fans had a hard time not hyperventilating?  No problem, count 'em.  Score what should be the winning basket with 9 seconds left?  Uh uh, Kizel had other ideas darting up court and forcing a foul, once again in the biggest spot he makes something out of nothing.  Salem is a great unknown for all 8 teams even if you have been there before.  While I want this squad to win as much as anyone, I have to admit they have already given all real fans of basketball more than most other fans willl ever get.

I think as with last week versu Cortland, you have to throw in Jensen making another huge rebound late in addition to the rest of his game which is really rounding into shape.  He and Sinnickson should be a tough duo to defend next season. 

[nescac1]

Some bulletin board material: on Hoopsville, the host thought that Williams and Middlebury could not win ("on paper") on Friday and that only Amherst would advance to the Final Four.  He also lamented the fact that the NESCAC squads did not have to face each other in the tourney.  I note that Williams has had to beat NESCAC squads in advancing to four of its prior six final fours (Amherst three times, and  Trinity once) and then also had to beat Amherst in a Final Four.  So certainly, there have been plenty of big-time NESCAC match-ups occurring in sectional or regional games.  And notwithstanding the lack of a NESCAC opponent, the committee did Williams no favors this year, making them go through Wesley, Catholic, VWU, and now St. Thomas if they hope to reach the Final Four.  Amherst had an easier path but earned that as one of the two top overall seeds, and still, Cabrini is no easy draw in the Elite Eight.  Midd was the beneficiary of an upset, but would have had to play a highly-ranked Rochester team on the road prior to another tough game vs. North Central.  I note that none of the three NESCAC teams were placed in seemingly the easiest quarter of the bracket, although some other New England teams were ...

Now, that's not to say that NCU and Illinois Wesleyan should not have been separated ... I think they should not have had to meet before, at least, the Elite 8.  But the implication (which we hear a lot) that NESCAC squads are somehow only advancing due to their bracket placement is pretty ridiculous this year.  The fact is, NESCAC has placed three teams in the Elite 8 each of the last two years.  Two of those teams reached the Final Four last time (the maximum number possible since Williams had to beat Amherst).  I think that all three NESCAC teams have proven, year in and year out, that they can play with anyone in the country.  I think that this year will prove to be no exception, even though two out of three are underdogs in Salem. 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

nescac... you are going off the deep end with my comments. I am indicating that conferences besides the NESCAC would have or did deal with conference opponents in this tournament - not past tournaments, not past years, this tournament. The NESCAC had all three teams separated from each other until at WORST the final four (Amherst vs. Middlebury). However, the NCAC (Ohio Wesleyan/Wooster) would have been a Sweet 16 game, the CCIW was a Sweet 16 game, and the ASC was a 2nd round came (certainly travel was a factor there).

I am glad that the committee was able to spread teams around as much as possible, though that didn't benefit the Midwest area nearly as much due to a lack of teams in that area, especially within 500 miles of each other with non-neutral games that a pod makes up. So seeing the chance for three teams to get to Salem is a bonus.

However, I don't necessarily agree that Middlebury should have been that protected. I think no one would have argued with Middlebury having to play Amherst in the Sweet 16 or Elite 8. Protecting Amherst and Williams makes a lot more sense and I have no problems with that. I just think that in fairness, the NESCAC didn't deserve to have all three teams "protected" as much as they were this year. No conference deserves that much protection when the third place team is fifth in the regional rankings.

I am not knocking the NESCAC's accomplishments as they certainly continue to get teams to Salem and the final four to be sure. However, in a normal year they would have had to take each other out to get one team to Salem - only once as two teams from the NESCAC made it to Salem for the final four.

And yes, the road for Williams is very tough and Middlebury's hasn't been easy (though easier). Amherst certainly has had the easiest trip compared to the other three... but that doesn't mean a Williams/Middlebury or Amherst/Middlebury game last week or so is out of the question as an expectation.

The NESCAC is a very good conference at the top, but I don't think it deserved to be as protected as they were this year... that is all I am saying.

[grabtherim]

Some bulletin board material: on Hoopsville, the host thought that Williams and Middlebury could not win ("on paper") on Friday and that only Amherst would advance to the Final Four.

Who knows who will win?  I sure don't, but "on paper"??  Midd and Williams may not win, but the host would be better served to go more in depth on matchups and styles versus "on paper".  If results were based "on paper" there would not be any need to actually play the games, and we could crown a champion now.  This is a guy who has not given Midd much credit, despite his weak denials of the same, over their recent 5 year run at or near the top of the NESCAC and beyond.  Thankfully the players play and it's too bad that guys who has seen them play once at most tell you they could not win"on paper".  tell us what you see with your eyes from watching games, not from a stat sheet.  The host is real good making sure he secures Hixon for a interview with Hixon "later in the tournament", and then thanking him ten times.  He should stick to that.  He's got it down. 

[Panthernation]

Additionally, in a previous post, I likened Colby's Adam Choice to a NESCAC version of Kevin Durant. This comparison may be overly complimentary of Choice's skill set, but, in defense of my logic, I can't think of a player from the past 10 or so years that has come close to possessing Choice's combination of comparatively (that is to say, comparatively: in the sense of comparing Choice's game to his 'CAC contemporaries, during this 10-15 year time period) elite level size for his position (the 3), length, athleticism, and overall scoring ability-- all while doing the bulk of his damage as a "perimeter scorer," as opposed to a guy that possesses similarly described physical tools, but does most of his damage operating from the interior block. The only other players that immediately come to mind that fit this mold during this period are both Lord Jeffs- Fletcher Walters and Brain Bauskaskas, but I'll take Choice over those guys if all 3 are still left on the All Time 'CAC Draft Big Board.

My knowledge of NESCAC hoops is not as vast and historical as some of the board's other seasoned veteran posters, so unfortunately, I would know very few names of conference players prior to 10-15 years ago. With that being said, please excuse me while I continue to entertain myself....

With the fist overall pick in the Historically Comparative 1998-2013 'CAC Draft, (___) selects....

IMO- You have to go with one of the great Bigs.. Coffin, Zieja. Stone, Rhoten, Cohen, Whittington, Sharry, Locke, Mayer
..But maybe your preference and managerial style calls for you to build your team from the Guard up (see what I did there?): a la Olson, Crotty, Rudin, Zak Ray, Schultz, Toomey, Kizel, or maybe a more versatile scorer like Schiel, Wheeler, Schultz, Choice, or Workman? All great players in their own right, and an argument could be made for most of them.

I think the answer has to be Troy Whittington-- just way too many "man amongst boys" and "Holy Moses" types of flashes/performances. Just a beast, plain and simple. And.. in case you couldn't tell, I enjoy this exercise.

Survive and advance,

Matt Daley, Middlebury's 6'8'' freshman is that kind of player. We've been able to watch him in practice and he has deep three-point range, shoots the ball like a guard and can put the ball on the floor. He has the size of 4-5 in the NESCAC, but will play the 3 or the 4 going forward for this team. He is a player to watch next year.

With regard to your draft, when you pick a player are you picking his career (as in does his learning curve/early struggles come in to play) or are you picking him for his "prime" (e.g. his best year or two)?

[AO]

It's been 6 years since Amherst won.  At some point, and maybe we've reached that point, the argument that the NESCAC has proved itself in Salem will ring hollow.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Maybe you should just address me... since I am the host. And considering I have voted for Middlebury as the number one team in the country during much of last season... I am not sure how I have discredited them over them years. Have I not been impressed this year? No... but I also have them in my Top 10 and have had them as high as #2 throughout the year... so you are right, clearly I am discrediting them.

Middlebury has won games ugly this year and their coach, who was on Hoopsville this year - but let's ignore that fact - admitted to that. Ithaca gift wrapped the end of that game on Saturday and the Panthers had to really dig deep to get past Cortland State. They did win both games and I give them that credit... but they are up against North Central who is a really physical team who also may play faster than nearly any other team Middlebury has played this year. If Amherst is as fast as NCC, they aren't even close to as physical. Middlebury has a bunch of team players, but no one you can expect to step up and take over when he has to... that could be a major factor against an NCC team that has three guys who can take over at any point in the game.

So on paper, Middlebury doesn't look like a winner versus NCC - but that is the key... and why I said it... on paper. When anyone tries to break a game down or try and figure out who can or can't win... it is based on the term "paper." They have to play the games and while match-ups don't look right or something doesn't seem to add up, the games reveal what we can't expect in looking at all the video and box scores in the world.

As for Williams, they are going up against the number one team in the country that has had basically two close games all year: Concordia-Moorehead who shot the lights out of the building on the road and an underrated Calvin team in the last round. Williams has played well, but hasn't exactly dominated against teams of equal, close-to-equal, or better than they are this season. They certainly have plenty of parts, but this is a UST team that has tons of experience including in Salem two years ago when they won a national title... again... ON PAPER this appears to be a UST win.