MBB: NESCAC

[jumpshot]

Everyone here will enjoy reading this excellent article ....


http://athletics.williams.edu/sports/mbkb/2012-13/releases/20130318sek59r

[mlevy128]

I generally lurk here, mostly because I'm often not sure I know enough about what I'm saying to be worth weighing in, and my thoughts tend to be scattered. So forgive me if that's still the case here. Most of my d3hoops knowledge, aside from attending games at Chandler (Williamstown resident), comes from reading the great opinions on this board and the great site and community you've built.

The problem that is missing here is the multiple purposes the NCAA tournament serves. To crown a champion, sure, but as a method for determining the best team in the country, it's pretty poor. We don't need 62-68 teams just to determine who's the best.

But it's also a reward to teams for their performance in the regular season (and this goes for D1 as well). For the some teams, it's a chance to test your team against the perennial contenders. Regular contenders get a chance to play against the top teams from other regions. For fans/students, these tournament games are frequently the only chance to see how most of the teams from other regions play, unless you really want to commit yourself to watching all the available webcasts during the season.

So I think this goal should be primary in tournament construction (acknowledging uncontrollable travel limitations). I'm more interested watching new opponents than Williams-Amherst IV or Williams-Middlebury III. We already have a pretty good idea how those go. I think its ideal that the three NESCAC teams won't have to play until it is unavoidable. The only downside I see is some people arguing this means something about NESCAC and not just these three schools and their players. I wish all conferences had gotten this benefit, and I'm sorry it wasn't the case.

Just my opinion, though.

[madzillagd]

+k

Well said

[Jump4Joy]

JumpShot,
Thanks for posting that article. Although I usually cheer for another team, I'm a fan of the NESCAC and a fan of sports writing that goes for the heart.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I can understand the frustration of the CCIW in always having to play conference opponents early and never getting much chance of having multiple teams in Salem.

I'm not sure the frustration should be expressed as contempt for the teams with favorable geography.  We also have to remember that this year the ODAC we set up for the chance to get three teams to Salem as well, they just didn't win.

Perhaps, instead of celebrating the men's tournament by inviting the championship game to Atlanta, they could have spent a little extra money and let the committee seed the tournament nationally like the d1 gets to every year.

[amh63]

Wow!....we are zipping along towards the 1000 barrier.....thanks to guests outside the conference.  Some GOOD things that have come out in this "debate" are, IMHO, the following:
1. Cal Luth....has attractive students.  By the way, Amherst's mens tennis team is going to Cal Luth for matches.  Must have read the posts of Madz and Middhoops.
2. The number of new posters that felt to join in instead of being on the sidelines.  Welcome all.  Board needs new voices. viewpoints that are expressed well.
3.  Nescac1 provided me with a date that conference Teams could participate in the NCAA tournaments.  Was looking for it and it was not clear on the NESCAC website.  Know that the D3 BB tournaments went back towards  the mid 70's a time period when the North Park poster's teams dominated.
Sidenotes:  See that it has snowed again in NE and at Amherst.
Amherst's team is leaving on Wednesday....there is some chance of snow in the D. C. area.  All persons heading to Salem, be aware.  Remember one Salem trip, that there was an ice storm that found many travelers delayed/stranded in the Front Royal Va to points South.  I was lucky and lost only an hour.  Another Amherst fan had an accident....but made it to the games.  Wife's car has all-wheel drive.
Grabtherim....like your passion and defense of the student-athlete approach.  + karma

[nescac1]

I think I actually gave the wrong date.  I am pretty sure that 1994, not 1993, was the first date that NESCAC teams could participate.  In 1994, by the way, Amherst made the Elite 8 where they lost by eight to the eventual national champ, and Williams made it to the second round, not bad for a debut.  In the second year of eligibility we saw the first NESCAC team in the Final Four, Trinity in 1995 (where the Bants got pounded, but still, that was the SECOND year NESCAC was eligble).  Two years later, Williams reached the Final Four for the first time.  That team, by the way, did not exactly have an easy path to the Final Four, having to beat arch-rival Amherst (in the second round), a top-notch Richard Stockton team, and defending national champ Rowan along the way ...

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

The bottom line is 3/4 of the games in the Elite 8 have a NESCAC team in them.  For whatever reason D-Mac not only looks for reasons to minimize the NESCAC in general and Middlebury in particular at every opportunity.  What I think galls many who read and post here is a haughtiness and unwillingness to ever accept anything other than his holier than though views and attitude.  The most insulting and absolute proof that while you may have been an athlete once upon a time, but don't get it now was to lecture on the last 6 seconds of the Ithaca game.  Things are moving at 100 mph for those on the floor, Kizel is driving to what at the very least will be a good look from 8-12 feet, and the kid reflexively gets him.  Did he want to?  Of course not.  Had there been a timeout after the Ithaca basket, the coach or his own experience would have probably precluded it from happening, but to call this kid to task and minimize a win in the heat of a Sweet 16 final seconds battle as "gift wrapping" is not an insult to the players, but rather one to Dave himself for not getting or forgetting what it was like to be an athlete in a moment of extreme pressure. In his zeal to find a reason to once again not give Middlebury the credit everyone but him reasonably affords them, he proves that his days of understanding athletes in the heat of battle are in the rear view mirror.  If you want to know the rules, why the NCAA puts teams where they do in the tournament or Coach Hixons cell phone number, reach out to Dave.  If you want real world analysis based on seeing and understanding games and the players in them, I'm afraid you have to look elsewhere.  Now you and your toadies can push some stupid button and change my karma from whatever to whatever.  I don't give a darn. Channeling Lloyd Bentsen, I know journalists and your no journalist.  Go look up that reference, you may learn something.   

I guess taking pop-shots is easy for you to do... in fact, you couldn't have my point of view more wrong. I have given Middlebury credit just as much as I have questioned just how strong their team is, after all despite a pretty good regional record, they finished #5 in the regional rankings because of a low SOS in comparison to others. However, I did tend to ignore that SOS when doing my Top 25 this year:

Preseason: #8
Week 1: #5
Week 2: #3
Week 3: #3
Week 4: #3
Week 5: #1 (WHAT?!)
Week 6: #3
Week 7: #5
Week 8: #5
Week 9: #6
Week 10: #5
Week 11: #3
Week 12: #6
Week 13: #10

So they were never out of my top ten and they averaged 4.7. They even got #1 from me before I blew up my ballot completely and even then they stayed in the top five for several more weeks.

Of course, you feel I love Amherst, so let's take a look at where I have had the Lord Jeffs and Williams for good measure:

Amherst: #6, #4, #7, #23, #23, #24, #24, #15, #15, #13, #10, #7, #4, #2. Average: 12.6
Williams: UR, #21, UR, UR, UR, UR, #20, #8, #8, #8, #11, #18, #17, #13

Clearly I don't like Middlebury.

I have stated... along with many others... that their games, their point spreads, their SOS, etc. worries me - I am sorry if you don't like that. I still think that Ithaca didn't have to do much to win that game after hitting the lay-up with six seconds left. I won't knock the fact that Kizel is a terrific player, never have... I just don't think they have all of the pieces to win in Salem. They have gotten this far so that is grounds for congratulations and back-up where I had them in my poll. However, I also don't think their road trip to this point along with how they have handled teams is something I would hang my hat on. They have certainly found a way to win and that is to be commended, but it is something I still worry about.

As for some of your other pop shots:

What I think galls many who read and post here is a haughtiness and unwillingness to ever accept anything other than his holier than though views and attitude.

I accept a lot of opinions and have changed how I feel about teams when reading posts and talking with people. However, I am also entitled as you are to defend my position. Just because I didn't change my mind to your thinking doesn't mean my views or attitude are holier than though... it just means I haven't changed my opinion.

The most insulting and absolute proof that while you may have been an athlete once upon a time, but don't get it now was to lecture on the last 6 seconds of the Ithaca game.  Things are moving at 100 mph for those on the floor, Kizel is driving to what at the very least will be a good look from 8-12 feet, and the kid reflexively gets him.  Did he want to?  Of course not.  Had there been a timeout after the Ithaca basket, the coach or his own experience would have probably precluded it from happening, but to call this kid to task and minimize a win in the heat of a Sweet 16 final seconds battle as "gift wrapping" is not an insult to the players, but rather one to Dave himself for not getting or forgetting what it was like to be an athlete in a moment of extreme pressure. In his zeal to find a reason to once again not give Middlebury the credit everyone but him reasonably affords them, he proves that his days of understanding athletes in the heat of battle are in the rear view mirror.

I know what is going on and I appreciate that, but I also understand that these student-athletes have trained for these moments. Ithaca didn't perform up to the expectation of the moment and I am sure their student-athletes would probably indicate that. Kizel did make a smart move to try and get up the court, but that doesn't mean Ithaca players made a smart move trying to stop him. I still play sports even at my age and I make mistakes all the time... and I am my own worse critic (as I have stated in the past; and about everything), so I will be the very first to cast a stone at my house any day at any time. I have also gone out of my way to compliment players and moments like Workman's missed free throw that even seemed to have his own team off guard. That is headsy and that is ballsy and it worked beautifully. I have knocked Toomey because it appears when he is off he presses and presses and presses and sometimes forgets he has teammates out there and I think it cost them the game at F&M last year (and I am not the only one). However, I am happy to compliment him on winning the game at Middlebury besides hitting just one other three pointer about 40 or 50 minutes earlier in the game.

By the way, the biggest regret I have in my college athletic days haunts me to this day. A series of events played out that a last second shot off a free kick got past me and cost us at least a tie in my first ever career start in goal. I have replayed that moment over and over again in my head at least on a weekly basis. I know what went wrong that was out of my control, I know what went wrong on my part, and I know the numerous things I should have done differently in that entire sequence (alerted the ref to the wrong position for the ball, not moving my wall far enough, not reminding one defender about a guy who had streaked from an angle the previous attempt, either not going all the way out for the ball or staying back a bit further for more reaction time, not planting my foot better to get a better dive on the ball, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.). I understand what they are dealing with every day and on every play - because I can even go back and rip apart other parts of that same game that I think would have made a difference. I appreciate where they are coming from... but if I was broadcasting that game I would have had to say something as well.

If you want to know the rules, why the NCAA puts teams where they do in the tournament or Coach Hixons cell phone number, reach out to Dave.  If you want real world analysis based on seeing and understanding games and the players in them, I'm afraid you have to look elsewhere.

Considering I usually toss or delete phone numbers of coaches and only talk to a vast majority on the air during the year or at Salem... asking me for a phone number isn't a great idea. I have talked to Hixon twice this season; Williams has appeared twice this season; Middlebury at least once if not twice. I have also talked to hundreds of other guests this year... so if you want to hear from them (and my questions and delivery don't tend to alter that much), feel free to tune in. In fact, Amherst fans know I asked hard questions about Toomey and if the bye week would be good for Amherst.

As for real world analysis... who would you turn to... someone who only agrees with your point of view?

Now you and your toadies can push some stupid button and change my karma from whatever to whatever.  I don't give a darn. Channeling Lloyd Bentsen, I know journalists and your no journalist.  Go look up that reference, you may learn something.   

I hardly EVER take someone's karma... in fact I think the last time I did it was a month ago in another board in a completely different region and it was for a comment that bordered on being deleted by a monitor. So don't look at me for karma dings... people do it to mine all the time, but I don't smite back because it isn't worth telling people if their opinions are bad or good - they are just their opinions as they are mine.

[grabtherim]

Taking you at your word, clearly your voting record is not consistent with your your general dismisiveness on Middlebury whenever you speak about them.  No one certainly not me ever said you were not entitled to your opinion.  It's simply the way you appear to be making the effort to come across as lecturing versus discussing which gets me.  You may not see that, but we can agree to disagree.  "Smart move" ??  If he scores, Ithaca loses the game, so there has to be some level of defense played.  You turn it around as not a smart move when a kid at this level did what he did with 20/20 hindsight.  What happened to you in soccer game timewise was a lifetime versus what the Ithaca kids faced in split seconds.  I dont have any problem with who you turn to for analysis, but you seem as concerned with making sure you appear to be your interview subjects friends via lobbing softballs (Jeff Brown included) versus getting some real meat off the bone.  You dont need to be a facsimile of early years of Mike Wallace at 60 Minutes, but all that's missing from your patting people on the back when you speak to them is a kiss on the cheek when the interview ends.  My apologies for questioning you on whatever that childish karma thing is.  Again I will take you at your word.  Why the heck is soemthing so juvenile even part of a blog/discourse anyway? 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

You might want to ask the women's basketball committee chairs, even former men's committee chairs, or Grinnell last year when I grilled their associate head coach (who was the interm head coach at the time) about the decisions to go for a record at the expense of the opponent. There have also been many others along the way.

Furthermore, I don't see the show as a place to grill coaches every time I have them on. They have agreed to be part of the show which I hope educates people on teams, coaches, players, etc. from around the country. If I was being an investigative reporter every time... it wouldn't work. Furthermore, I asked Jeff Brown about the fact the team can't seem to beat the beatable teams more easily; I asked Dave Hixon about whether Toomey can be a liability; I pressed MIT's coach about his injured stars and when they might return until I realized I wasn't going to get any information, period... I could go on. However, I will also have fun chatting with these coaches. I enjoy the conversations and I thank them for the time they take to join us especially since I know behind the scenes that their schedule may have been tight in the first place. And no coach has to say a thing about me or D3hoops at the end and in fact more coaches this year took the time to thank their staff, players, administration and fans for their support than any other year... and I applaud that (the last question actually came when I realized a coach may have something they do want to say that I had not asked them).

If you want a different show, please feel free to turn us off and maybe even start your own - I am not stopping you.

[lefrakenstein]

Ahh, spring. The time of year when the unbiased administrators of d3hoops.com log on to the NESCAC board to tell (lecture?) the regular posters that the conference's post-season success is due to some combination of structural favoritism (easier brackets) and sheer luck. Surely we could never hang with the big boys from the midwest. (and west, which is, of course, part of the midwest).

It's not worth arguing. The NESCAC big three have won 2 of the last 10 titles and been to countless sweet 16s, elite 8s and final 4s, and we still haven't convinced anyone. This will continue to happen every year.

[madzillagd]

1. Cal Luth....has attractive students.  By the way, Amherst's mens tennis team is going to Cal Luth for matches.  Must have read the posts of Madz and Middhoops.

Looks like it's today & tomorrow .  I can't say I spent a lot of time at the existing tennis courts because they are brand new, but I did spend a lot of time at the previous incarnation of the tennis courts.  Still peeved 20 years later about my tennis grade being a B+.  Teacher was Rich Hill, now the U of San Diego Baseball Coach.  His grades were based on participation and performance (Wins/Losses during class).  We had an actual tennis player in the class (as opposed to the rest of us hacks) and being the only person in class that could even remotely keep up with him, I got stuck playing 90% of my matches against him and therefore my W/L was horrible.  Life isn't fair I guess.   

Also had a roommate, Tomislav Zelenovic, that was a great tennis player so I used to watch him play all the time.  He grew up with Goran Ivanišević in Croatia and Goran's dad was his junior coach.   Made it to the Sweet 16 in Singles and Semifinals in Doubles.   Some folks may remember hearing about him a couple years ago - he was arrested for assaulting another passenger for putting chair back on a flight    http://news.travel.aol.com/2010/11/29/fight-over-reclined-airline-seat-leads-to-ear-attack-and-arrest/

The CLU tennis coach, who had just started when I was there and has now been there 20 years, was once clocked in competition at 149 mph on a serve. 

And with that, I've exhausted my knowledge of the CLU tennis program.  Oh, except for they plucked my wife out of Beginning Tennis 101 and put her on the tennis team despite never having played competitive tennis before in her life.  Needless to say, they didn't have a great team but when your recruiting efforts only extend 100 feet from your office I can understand why.

[grabtherim]

You might want to ask the women's basketball committee chairs, even former men's committee chairs, or Grinnell last year when I grilled their associate head coach (who was the interm head coach at the time) about the decisions to go for a record at the expense of the opponent. There have also been many others along the way.

Furthermore, I don't see the show as a place to grill coaches every time I have them on. They have agreed to be part of the show which I hope educates people on teams, coaches, players, etc. from around the country. If I was being an investigative reporter every time... it wouldn't work. Furthermore, I asked Jeff Brown about the fact the team can't seem to beat the beatable teams more easily; I asked Dave Hixon about whether Toomey can be a liability; I pressed MIT's coach about his injured stars and when they might return until I realized I wasn't going to get any information, period... I could go on. However, I will also have fun chatting with these coaches. I enjoy the conversations and I thank them for the time they take to join us especially since I know behind the scenes that their schedule may have been tight in the first place. And no coach has to say a thing about me or D3hoops at the end and in fact more coaches this year took the time to thank their staff, players, administration and fans for their support than any other year... and I applaud that (the last question actually came when I realized a coach may have something they do want to say that I had not asked them).

If you want a different show, please feel free to turn us off and maybe even start your own - I am not stopping you.

I will give you credit, you are adept at turning things around to elevate/defend your positions.  Did anyone suggest you grill coaches all of the time?  I know I didnt.  Man those are some real biting questions you asked in between the chuckling and letting them know you are a member of the inner circle.  Your last statement is akin to saying I'm going to take my ball and go home when things dont go your way.  Hey, two can play your immature game, tit for tat if you will:  If you dont like my criticism dont respond. 

[Colby Hoops]

Cool piece on NESCAC squads in the Elite 8 by Jack Mccallum, although he clearly hasn't heard about the D3hoops bracket challenge.

http://www.jackmccallum.net/2013/03/19/an-elite-three-in-an-elite-eight/#.UUi0fzcqtki

[nescac1]

Awesome article Colby Hoops, thanks for posting.

Seems like things are turning around at Colby by the way, and I look forward to seeing how the young team develops over the next few years.