MBB: NESCAC

[AO]

3.  Nescac1 provided me with a date that conference Teams could participate in the NCAA tournaments.  Was looking for it and it was not clear on the NESCAC website.  Know that the D3 BB tournaments went back towards  the mid 70's a time period when the North Park poster's teams dominated.

Late '70s, actually. The first D3 tourney was held in March '75. NPU won its first title in '78, followed by '79, '80, '85, and '87.

if you're counting at home, this marks the 14,934th reference on this forum to the North Park national title years.   

[amh63]

Had to go to an Amherst DC Function tonight sponsored by the local club.....enjoyed seeing a bunch of classmates/friends and several trustees...one a classmate of my daughter!  Walked in with a former FBI Director/CIA Director that I admire.  He wore a baseball cap from our newest aircraft carrier...the first Bush president....also a CIA Director.  Talked a little BB...he and others are aware of the Amherst BB team achievements. (if they didn't, I filled them in )
Returned and see our guests from the midwest/west boards are still around and that Madz is sleeping.
Madz.....your school kicked Amherst's butts.  In recent years, the new coach has built a powerhouse D3 Tennis team with a very large squad.  The squad is divided into two teams that during Spring break go out to  play the best teams that they can find.....where the sunshine is plentiful.  Many of the schools are top D3 tennis schools, D2 and even D1 schools if they can get matches.....all to get ready for the conference matches and D3 tournaments and hopefully another National title.  BB news?
Nothing much to add.....except that there is a preview of the teams playing this weekend on the Amherst's website...athletic section....for those interested.  As they did for the WBB team at the Final 4.....there will be a BLOG of the events ahead.....geared of course to Amherst.
Expect Williams will also follow suit and Panthernation to blog from Salem.
In the next couple of days....hope to figure out a place for my Beer and Burger treat for posters who are coming down.  The time will be the big problem since the "CAC" games are spread all over the schedule.

[JustAFan]

Nescac1, I implore you not to take the bait from Sager and McHugh! PLEASE let the interlopers turn their energies to the other boards. There are some great games to be played and rehashed and debated, and we need to be able to get on with that dialog (and also spend a little bit more time celebrating the good fortunes, and accomplishments, of M/W/A) without all of this long-winded lecturing.  ZZZZZZZZ indeed.....

[nescac1]

JustAFan, no need to worry.  Since I made my original point (simply, that folks will complain about how NESCAC teams are bracketed regardless of whether they face each other like they typically did in the past, or are split up as they have been during the past few years) long ago, and it was never actually rebutted in the many thousands of words worth of responses, there is no need for further commentary.  I'm done chasing down increasingly tangential, tortured, goalpost-moving arguments ... at least until next year, when we are inevitably reminded that no matter how many NESCAC teams advance how far, and no matter how the tourney is structured, the NESCAC teams were all gifted their positions in Salem, because, you see, in 1957 a NESCAC team lost by 12 points to a team from the Midwest.

[middhoops]

I didn't realize it but our guest, Mr. Sager is the play by play announcer for the North Park Vikings of the CCIW.

http://athletics.northpark.edu/news/2012/12/7/MBB_1207122733.aspx

Between Dave, Pat, Gordon and Greg, we're getting a lot of media participation in recent days.

[AO]

  Since I made my original point (simply, that folks will complain about how NESCAC teams are bracketed regardless of whether they face each other like they typically did in the past, or are split up as they have been during the past few years) long ago, and it was never actually rebutted in the many thousands of words worth of responses

I pledge to not complain if Middlebury and Amherst or Williams are in the same 8-team bracket next year and are forced to face each other to get to the elite 8.   

My main point which I could hope everyone now agrees with is that the elite 8 in Salem are not necessarily the best 8 teams in the nation, due to the forced regional nature of the regular season scheduling and playoff bracketing.  Wheaton, Illinois Wesleyan, Calvin, Stevens Point and Whitewater might all be Elite 8 teams if put in different brackets.  The d3 tournament does a good job of deciding who the #1 team is, but a poor job of ranking 2-62.

[amh63]

Greetings all on the 1st day of Spring!...with the northeast freezing.
Sidenote Comments only...
The Amherst website Salem Stories provide only Amherst, Cabrini, Middlebury and North Central writeups and site links.  Decided not to cover the other side of the bracket.....couldn't do justice to the Williams team, I guess .
Old Guy....talked to my daughter again about Ithaca's Bombers athletic term.  Some confusion/avoidance on the matter.  Rebranding on the mascot.  Former "fighter bomber" logo removed awhile back.  Looked further and the best bet is a BASEBALL connection.....to the Yankees.....the Bronx Bombers term...old baseball uniforms with pinstripes and IC label.....also a possible connection to basketball as the teams would "bomb away".  I know,  it is like "Purple Cows"....complete avoidance from Williams' posters.   School is noted for producing top notch sports announcers!...interesting and timely connection here.
WSJ stories have interest here.....So far, the "blindfold" Div1 contest to date has produced 51 different winners....interesting in that there are only 68 teams entered.  D3 has only 8 possible winners.....we are more advance ...........short story showing that though many former title winners really did use their bench.....majority only used 8 or less players in their title runs.  Georgetown used only 6!...conclusion- deep bench not required.
Story about top teams...Ohio State, Butler, and Wisconsin prefer old methods to prepare players to win.  Bo Ryan of Wisconsin won back to back D3 titles (at Salem?) when he was coach at one of the D3 Wisconsin schools....Stevens Point, I believe.
Last trivia bit....fans going by motor vehicle to Salem and using the interstate....will travel by/thru James Madison Un.......a Div1 school that has a game today in the NCAA tournament.

[gordonmann]

Between Dave, Pat, Gordon and Greg, we're getting a lot of media participation in recent days.

I'm a NESCAC alum and follow this board throughout the year.  It's one of the more entertaining and interesting basketball boards. I just don't have much to say usually.

[nescac1]

AO, I think it is uncontroversial that, in any 64 (or thereabouts) tournament format, including Division I and Division III basketball, the Elite 8 is not necessarily representative of the eight best teams in the nation.  As I'm sure fans of Catholic, Virginia Wesleyan, Wooster, Hampden-Sydney (all of whom "might all be Elite 8 teams if put in different brackets"), among others, along with the teams you list, would happily attest to.  No one has ever claimed otherwise.   If ifs and buts were candies and nuts, oh what a party we'd have! 

[grabtherim]

For those of us not making the long trip to Salem, has anyone seen a link for the webcasts of Friday's games?.  The game is not listed on the Midd Live Coverage page. 

[nescac1]

Speaking of the trip to Salem, who else will be there?  As a Virginia resident, pretty much my only chance to see the Ephs in person is during tourney play!  Looking forward to meeting some of the other regulars here ...

[amh63]

Grabtherim.........on the Amherst website it states.......website links will be provided when made available.....my take is that the committee in charge has not yet made that info available....yet.  I'm sure D3Hoops will have some linkage as soon as they get the info.....as will the "CAC" sites.

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

Speaking of the trip to Salem, who else will be there?  As a Virginia resident, pretty much my only chance to see the Ephs in person is during tourney play!  Looking forward to meeting some of the other regulars here ...

I'll be there, properly attired in purple-and-grey

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Grabtherim.........on the Amherst website it states.......website links will be provided when made available.....my take is that the committee in charge has not yet made that info available....yet.  I'm sure D3Hoops will have some linkage as soon as they get the info.....as will the "CAC" sites.

Usually this means the NCAA has not gotten the links set-up from the production crew. Sometimes they need a lay of the land (since it is a new crew than who usually travels to Salem) and they need to make sure the portals and such are up and running. Though, they also could just be waiting on other things to post them.

[AndOne]

Hello NESCAC fans. Hope you'll pardon the intrusion of a CCIW fan.

Much discussion on the boards with regard to the NCAA committee placement of various Elite Eight teams in the different brackets, and of facts/figures, and strengths/weaknesses of each of the teams.
For purposes of comparison as to how the teams left standing arrived in Salem, I am taking the liberty to post some interesting stats/facts compiled by Greg Sager, a CCIW poster who is an encyclopedia of D3 basketball knowledge about not only the CCIW, but about D3 basketball and many other D3 sports on the national level as well. Mr. Sager is a member of the basketball family at one of the CCIW schools, but his dog does not have a place in this fight, and his objectivity is assured.
Greg posted this information on the Multi-Regional Topics board, which likely was not perused by all possibly interested parties.

Gregory Sager
Hall of Fame
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Posts: 14933
Karma: 917
North Park Vikings: Nat'l champs, 1978-79-80-85-87
   

Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
« Reply #360 on: March 18, 2013, 10:25:54 pm »

Just for the sake of reference, let's look at each of the Elite Eight teams' road thus far, using the latest d3hoops.com poll and the Massey Ratings:

St. Thomas (#1 d3h / #1 Massey)
UNR / #76 Aurora
#22 / #11 Wheaton (IL)
#12 /  #4 Calvin
d3h avg. = #25 / Massey avg. = #30

Williams (#8 d3h / #8 Massey)
UNR  / #43 Wesley
#9 / #22 Catholic
#25 / #20 Virginia Wesleyan
d3h avg. = #25 / Massey avg. = #28

Mary Hardin-Baylor (UNR d3h / #17 Massey)
-- bye --
UNR / #18 Concordia (TX)
#6 / #14 @ Whitworth
d3h avg. = #29 / Massey avg. = #16 or #148 (including bye)

St. Mary's (MD) (#11 d3h / #10 Massey)
#24 / #67 MIT
#26 / #23 @ Alvernia
UNR / #121 Morrisville State
d3h avg. = #30 / Massey avg. = #70

Amherst (#2 d3h / #5 Massey)
-- bye --
UNR / #66 Plattsburgh State
UNR / #16 Randolph-Macon
d3h avg. = #40 / Massey avg. = #41 or #165 (including bye)

Cabrini (#30 d3h / #26 Massey)
#16 / #9 @ Hampden-Sydney
#21 / #30 @ Ohio Wesleyan
#20 / #31 @ Wooster
d3h avg. = #19 / Massey avg. = #23

North Central (#3 d3h / #2 Massey)
UNR / #65 Centre
#5 / #3 vs. UW-Whitewater
#10 / #7 Illinois Wesleyan
d3h avg. = #18 / Massey avg. = #25

Middlebury (#7 d3h / #19 Massey)
UNR / #123 Curry
UNR / #29 @ Cortland State
UNR / #74 Ithaca
d3h avg. = #40 / Massey avg. = #79

(For all teams unranked by d3hoops.com, I assigned a #40 value, since 39 teams received votes in the last poll. For the two teams that received byes, the second Massey number includes a #413 ranking for the open slot, since there are 412 D3 men's basketball teams rated by Massey.)


Gregory Sager
Hall of Fame
All-American
Posts: 14933
Karma: 917
North Park Vikings: Nat'l champs, 1978-79-80-85-87
   

Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
« Reply #361 on: March 18, 2013, 10:26:49 pm »

Now, let's look at the Elite Eight in terms of their aggregate opponent rankings/ratings:

St. Thomas:   d3h avg. = #25 / Massey avg. = #30
Williams:   d3h avg. = #25 / Massey avg. = #28
Mary Hardin-Baylor:   d3h avg. = #29 / Massey avg. = #16 or #148 (including bye)
St. Mary's (MD):   d3h avg. = #30 / Massey avg. = #70
Amherst:   d3h avg. = #40 / Massey avg. = #41 or #165 (including bye)
Cabrini:   d3h avg. = #19 / Massey avg. = #23
North Central:   d3h avg. = #18 / Massey avg. = #25
Middlebury:   d3h avg. = #40 / Massey avg. = #79

A few things jump out:

* Cabrini's run is really impressive. The Cavaliers are the greatest road warriors since Mel Gibson. Not only have they faced the second-most highly-ranked teams (d3hoops.com), just barely behind NCC, and most highly-rated teams (Massey) on average, they've won all three of those games on the road. Cabrini needs to get much more of a shout-out from the d3boards.com regulars (myself included) for this remarkable feat than it's gotten thus far.

* Aside from Cabrini, North Central (representing the so-called "Bracket of Death") has had the toughest road to Salem. Williams and St. Thomas follow next, in close proximity to each other. St. Mary's and Mary Hardin-Baylor have had it comparatively easy, although I'd argue that UMHB's two-thousand-mile flight to beat Whitworth in the home gym of the Pirates more than cancels out the benefit of having a first-round bye.

* Amherst and Middlebury have had the two easiest roads to the Elite Eight, by either the d3hoops.com or Massey standard. Even if you were to take away Amherst's first-round bye and force the Lord Jeffs to play either one of what would've been the two likeliest choices for their first-round opponent if this was a 63-team bracket rather than a 62-team bracket -- the Brandeis Judges, who were unranked in the latest d3hoops.com poll and currently sit at #48 in the Massey Ratings, or the Springfield Pride, who are unranked and #97 -- Amherst's tourney strength of schedule doesn't improve much by either standard, and it certainly doesn't vault them past any of the other seven Elite Eight teams by comparison.