MBB: NESCAC

[wrm238]

UMass-Lowell is moving to Division 1. American East Conference...

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/02/14/umass-lowell-joining-america-east/xVWHftRXWIMVPg40IStHxL/story.html

[madzillagd]

Brady Holding also going to Amherst, don't remember if he's been mentioned before.

[dman]

the rich get richer.....

[amh63]

Madz....thanks for the update.   Coach Crotty of the Middlesex Magic team even twitted the decision.
The new member of the Amherst Class of 2017 is from Darmouth HS in MA and invests in the stock market.  Oh yes, he is listed as a 6'3" SG.  Stated that he had applied to Amherst, BU and several Ivy schools.

[remsleep]

I don't see Maker leaving Williams for UMass-Lowell (or for that matter, for any D-II program).  He'll be at Williams unless and until he receives a good D-1 offer (something few D-3 coaches would turn down).  Especially considering the talent he has coming back, and in the incoming recruiting class.

The reason for my post is two-fold......UMass-Lowell is transitioning to D1 America East......If Parker Executive Search is retained by UMass-Lowell, Maker will be an up front recommendation from their existing pool( assuming he is interested)

[amh63]

Just read that the NCAA  has moved up the start of practice for next season...I.e.  midnight madness can start earlier.   Need someone else smarter than me to "translate" this info to the D3 world In general and the CAC in particular.
Just know that Amherst starts practice about a week later than most non conference schools and it puts the team behind for the start of the season.  Brave new world as they say.

[Pat Coleman]

The Division III midnight madness schedule change has no effect on Division III. D-III schools can still start practice as early as Oct. 15.

[AmherstStudent05]

Regarding legacies, the 2013 Amherst team has no doubt earned its place in the NESCAC pantheon.  I'm not sure they top the 2003 Williams title team, though, which went 31-1, had two all-American caliber players, arguably the best second unit (Bhat / Newton / Kain / Folan / Graham) I've seen in NESCAC, and outscored opponents by over 21 ppg (around 23 ppg in NESCAC play), had a ridiculous rebounding differential, plus handily beat a loaded Amherst squad in the Elite 8 before playing very tough competition in the Final Four.  The fact that they came back the next year (despite major lossses to graduation) to beat Holy Cross on the road, make it all the way back to the title game, and come within one shot of a repeat validated that team's stellar run.  But honestly, I don't think a lot separates the 2003-04 Williams, 2007-08 Amherst, 2010 Williams, and 2013 Amherst teams.  And I also think that the 1996 Williams team could have beaten any of them, they just had the bad fortune to run into basically a D-1 Rowan team prior to the Final Four in a game in which the Eph's all-American center got a migraine.  2013 Amherst is the most athletic and effective in transition, 2010 Williams the best shooting, 2003-04 Williams the best defensively and on the interior, 07-08 Amherst the most balanced and efficient offensively of that group.  Each would have advantages vs. any of the others. 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, nescac1. The 2003 Williams team was obviously very impressive, and they certainly got the best of an excellent Amherst team in the NESCAC Championship Game and in the Elite 8 (Although the 2003 Amherst team did win the regular season NESCAC title).  The Elite 8 victory was particularly impressive.  Williams's 2nd half performance in that game was one of the best basketball performances I have ever seen live (Amherst's first half against RMC this year reminded me of that Williams game, although I dont think RMC was nearly as good as that 03 Amherst team).  The main reason I place the 2013 Amherst team (and the 07 Amherst team) above the 03 Williams team is because the 03 Williams team barely won each of their games in Salem.  The Ephs easily could have lost to either Wooster or Gustavus Adolphus and I think you yourself have acknowledged that Williams benefited from some generous officiating that weekend (even if the karmic scales may have been evened in 2010). 

Anyway, on the larger question of which team was actually better (as opposed to which team put together a more impressive season), I think very strong arguments could be made for a whole host of teams -- not just those that actually got to Salem. 

I could be way off, but I personally think that the 2003 Elite Eight loss greatly shaped how Coach Hixon has constructed his teams going forward.  Over the past 8 years, we have consistently been led by a series of PGs who are very strong scoring options (Olson, Meehan, and Toomey), and we have a bunch of athletic forwards who were individually capable of defending quick guards on the wing and bigger forwards down low.  My point is just that the "weaknesses" of the 03 Amherst team relative to at least Williams have subsequently become real strengths -- completely changing a hypothetical matchup between the squads.

Finally, in my mind, the 2007 Amherst team undoubtedly had the best 2nd unit in the NESCAC. That team had Fletcher Walters, Kevin Hopkins, and Brandon Jones coming off the bench as juniors, as well stalwart defender point guard Mike Salerno (then a senior).  Add to that Adolphe Coulibaly (who started the year as a starter) and Matt Goldsmith (who quite possibly could have been the sixth man had he not been hurt in the offseason).  That was a ridiculously deep team.  The Amherst Class of 2008 is (rightly) regarded as one of the best and deepest classes in Amherst history, but Olson was the only member of that group who cracked the starting lineup prior to his senior year.

[nescac1]

Obviously, we will never know the answer, but I think just isolating on the margin of victories in the Final Four isn't a fair metric.  You have to consider the strength of competition in the Final Four and I think most folks would agree that Mary Hardin Baylor, while a very strong team, was not as strong as any of the teams that Williams faced in its three championship appearances, in particular the two Stevens Point teams, nor was it as strong as the Wooster team which Williams was, admittedly, very fortunate to beat in 2003.  So while one factor favors Amherst 2013, you have to look to all the other factors I listed, and the fact that (1) over a two year stretch, Williams lost a grand total of three games, one of those by two points to a Wisconsin Stevens Point team that was one of the best in recent memory, and the Ephs in that time period beat a decent D-1 Holy Cross team on the road plus beat loaded Amherst squads twice deep in the tourney (2) Williams absolutely dominated statistically throughout the 2003 season, in terms of margin of victory, rebounding margin, shooting percentage margin, and so on, (3) the aforementioned dominant performance over a VERY strong Amherst team in the Elite 8, and (4) Williams brought multiple all-NESCAC caliber guys off the bench in 2003 (Folan and Kain) all make it clear that the 2003 Williams team has as good a claim as any other single NESCAC team as any, and that the two season stretch from 2003 through 2004 was the best two-year stretch for any NESCAC team, ever.  The 2003 Williams team, outside of the Final Four, was far more consistently dominant than the 2013 Amherst team, which lost to two mediocre teams (granted, early in the season) and BARELY escaped vs. Williams and Midd late in the season, and had its own bit of good fortune and one incredible play to beat Middlebury, in particular. 

Now, again, that doesn't mean that they'd necessarily beat any of the Amherst teams you mentioned in any single game, but I would like their chances.  Looking position by position:  Center, Coffin vs. Kaasila, huge edge for Williams.  PF, DeMuth vs. Williamson, I don't think either could really guard the other effectively, but I'll say slight edge to Williamson just because of how he played in the tourney, still, DeMuth would have punished him inside a bit.   On the wings, the teams are about even, Workman/Killian vs. Cole/Abba (Workman is the best of those four, but Killian doesn't have the impact of either Abba or Cole), and at PG, very different players, but again, two all-American guys in Crotty vs. Toomey, so about even (Toomey a better scorer, Crotty better at getting others involved and running the show).  Off the bench, the talent between Kalema/Green/Pollack and Kain/Folan/Bhat/Newton is about even, but the Williams group had a LOT more experience at that point.  I think if they played, Cole would pretty much lock down Toomey, and Abba would make life very difficult for Workman despite being undersized, but ultimately, would struggle with his length.  Williamson would be a HUGE match-up problem for that Williams team, the Ephs had no forward to match up with him (then again, no one in D-3 seemed to).  On the other hand, I think Williams would absolutely kill the 2013 Amherst team inside, both in the post on the boards, with Coffin and DeMuth backed by Bhat and Newton.  Just too much length, physicality, skill, and strength inside.  Overall, Amherst would have a sizeable speed advantage, but Williams would have a sizeable advantage on the inside and probably own the glass (no team Amherst faced this season had an interior presence at the level of the Williams 2003 team).  It would be very interesting to watch. 

I think the Amherst 2007 team was deep as 2003 Williams, but outside of Olson they lacked a truly elite guy in the starting line-up (Wheeler was very close, and Walters reached that level by his senior year, but not yet at that point).  Very balanced with a lot of guys who could play, but they didn't have the same type of firepower in the starting line-up as either 2003 Williams or 2013 Amherst.  I actually think the top six guys (Schultz, Rubin, Wang, Whittington, Geoghegan, Robertson) on 2010 Williams are easily the best top-six of any NESCAC team I've seen, but there was a STEEP drop-off after that group, and the lack of depth would have ultimately been their downfall, just as it was in the 2010 title game.  Still, Whittington, Wang, and Schultz together, with Rubin firing threes, were basically unguardable when they got it going.  The Williams win vs. a very tough Guilford squad in the 2010 semis is the best SINGLE game performance I've seen out of any NESCAC team, ever. 

[AmherstStudent05]

Excellent post as always nescac1. While we might be close to running this fascinating topic to ground, I can't resist sharing some thoughts (this is my second attempt at this as I mysteriously lost my first attempted reply literally as I was about to click the "post" key. I still have much to learn I guess).

First, I do agree with you that, to my eyes at least, UMHB was not as strong as the opponents the NESCAC has previously played in Championship games (although I do think that the NCC team Amherst beat this year was very strong and would have been a really tough out for any of the NESCAC greats we have been discussing).  That said, I think we should also be careful not to oversell the quality of the competition Williams faced in 2003.  From what I can tell, Wooster was quite strong, but GA was a six-loss team that wasn't even in the top 20 at the outset of that tournament (to be clear, I never actually saw those 2003 Wooster or GA teams play although I did listen to Pat & Pat's call of the Championship game on the radio). I know at least some people came away from the championship game thinking that GA was the better team.  When discussing victories over tough Salem fields, I don't see how we can overlook what the 2007 Amherst team accomplished.  In this Semis, they edged out #2 ranked Wooster, which had an outstanding team that year.  In the championship game, Amherst absolutely smoked 4th ranked Virginia Wesleyan, who were the defending champions (the kind of repeat run you seem to admire) and returned both of their all-tournament players from the year before (Adair and Balenga).

I do think, when comparing all admittedly elite teams across the past decade, that performance in the Final Four is particularly noteworthy because ultimately, I think elite teams are judged by the way they play against elite competition.  Final Four performance wasn't the only thing I mentioned in favor of 2013 Amherst, however.  I believe I started this discussion by noting that 2013 Amherst was the first team ever to (i) win all of its regular season NESCAC games, (ii) win the NESCAC Tournament, and (iii) win the NCAA Tournament.  Yes, there were some close calls along the way, but 2013 Amherst never lost to Williams this year (thank you Allen Williamson), whereas Williams actually did lose to Amherst in 2003 -- more than a close call, you might say.  I would also say that the NESCAC was tougher in 2013 than it was in 2003 (due only to the emergence of Midd, although we now also have an additional team in the conference as well).

As for some of the other points you raised. (1) I don't know why Williams's performance over a two-year span is relevant in a discussion about which individual team was the best or accomplished the most in a given season. Although I obviously do concede that the Ephs had a phenomenal run in 2003-04, although the 07-08 Jeffs were right there. (2) It would be foolish of me to even attempt to argue your point about the statistical dominance of Williams's regular season in 2003 -- indeed, why would I, like everyone else, I think the 03 Ephs were a damn good team.  I would say though that these statistics came at the expense of a relatively weak schedule -- even very weak when compared to the schedule the Jeffs played this year.  As mentioned above, the NESCAC wasn't very strong in 2003 outside of Amherst and Williams (this was before the emergence of Tyler Rhoten -- then a freshman -- and PantherNation generally).  Outside of Amherst and Williams, no NESCAC team notched more than 16 wins in 2003.  Also, Williams's non-conference schedule was even worse. I don't think the Ephs played a single top-25 team that year (although perhaps you could argue that the d3hoops poll was less sophisticated then as it is now).  (4) you would know better than I, but I really don't recall Tucker Kain being an All-NESCAC caliber performer in 2003. Of course, I know that Kain wasn't actually named to an All-NESCAC team until two years later in 2005, but I dont remember him being even that much of a contributor in 2003. Certainly he didnt make an impression on me in any of the four Amherst-Williams games I saw that year (although TK did make a tremendous impression on me the following year as I sat courtside for a weekend of basketball in Salem). I dont really recall Bhat being all that dominant either.  Although Folan was inarguably a top-notch 6th man and he gave us fits in the Elite Eight game (although I think Workman could have handled him rather easily).

Finally, as for your hypothetical matchup between the 13 Jeffs and the 03 Ephs, I liked your breakdown, but naturally I have a few disagreements. First, I highly doubt that Cole could so easily "lock down" Toomey. I may be misremembering, but I seem to recall Adam Harper getting the better of Cole on a bunch of occasions -- I just dont remember him to be nearly the same caliber of on-the-ball defender as Thompson or Workman but I could be wrong.  Also, I think you undersell somewhat the likely impact of our other All-American, Willy Workman, on the outcome of this hypothetical matchup. I have tremendous respect for Chuck Abba - another culprit in the Elite Eight debacle -- he is a true "game", but athletically I think he would be clearly outmatched against Workman.

The matchup in the paint is intriguing. I am sure you will not be surprised when I say that I am less sure that Williams would dominate us down low.  Kaasila is as big a 5 as Amherst has had in the past decade and he is not so easily pushed around (I would also expect him to do some damage defensively as well).  Unfortunately, Amherst just didnt play that many post-oriented teams this year, so it is very difficult for me to say how they would have responded.

[old_hooper]

Doesn't it make sense that Midd put Amherst and Williams on its schedule for non-conference game?  Realize that it has to be mutual but all three would benefit to upgrade their schedules by adding the additional game with each other.

[jumpshot]

The primary beneficiary of such a proposal would be Middlebury as it seeks to create a prominent rivalry comparable to Williams/Amherst, Bowdoin/Bates/Colby, etc.

[grabtherim]

All of the NESCAC teams should add tough out of conference games before the conference schedule begins.  Makes you better for the long run. 

[old_hooper]

The weekend that Williams/Amherst play the non-conference game, just extend it to Friday, Saturday and Sunday at that venue.  Example, Friday game Williams/Amherst, loser of Friday game play Midd Saturday and the winner of Friday game play Midd on Sunday.  Give it name and make it an annual event rotating venues each year.  Charge admission for the games to pay the travel expenses of the two other teams.

[madzillagd]

No thank you.  Williams & Amherst met 3 times last year and were close to meeting a 4th time.  That's overkill in my book.  There's a lot of good teams around I'd rather see any of the 3 match up against than to do yet another game together.  Maybe MIT & WPI will be able to maintain their momentum and that would be a good future match of the top NESCAC vs NEWMAC.  I agree tougher opponents are nice, I just don't think it needs to be league opponents that are likely to play each other twice if not 3 times already.

Besides, after going 0-fer last year, maybe Midd should set their sights a little lower and set up another game with Tufts.     (we can't trash talk Amherst but we can still trash talk Midd  )