MBB: NESCAC

[madzillagd]

Midd - you make an interesting point about Mayer.  Being one of the few big men that can shoot the 3 or put it on the floor and drive around you it will be interesting to see how he gets defended.  Most opposing big men do immediately hand check/bar arm him when he makes that initial move so they can try and get back in front.  Will be interesting if you have a slower big man if coaches don't employ some type of switch so a quicker man guards him up top but then the big man switches over if he goes to the post. 

I wouldn't be surprised if more teams try out a zone this year like Williams did last year.  Maybe the only way to prevent key players from getting in foul trouble and keeping them on the floor for their offense. 

[John Gleich]

TitanQ, given how loaded those three teams are, I'd say that there is at least a 50 percent chance that we see at least one more appearance from that group, collectively.  You can toss in Stevens Point (not sure how many Final Fours, but three titles) and Wash U, and those five dominant teams of the Salem era ALL look poised, once again, for big years.  [Virginia Wesleyan is the other dominant team of that era, but looks a bit down from last year].

UWSP is 3/3... three trips to Virginia and three walnut and bronze trophies.


Speaking of Salem... what do the NESCACers think of the possibility of the Final Four moving somewhere other than Salem, such as Calvin?

The trip would change from 6-700 miles to 8-900... do you think that it may affect some of the support from the casual fan?

A more central location would definitely be appealing to people from the Midwest and Great Lakes. Though Stevens Point has never been lacking in the fan department, a quick jaunt around Lake Michigan could get an even bigger contingent from the supporters of WIAC or CCIW (and certainly from MIAC) teams.


Back in 2002, when Stevens Point's women were National Champs, the final four was in Terra Haute, Indiana. I road tripped over the weekend with some friends and teammates and UWSP had a decent number of supporters.

In 2005, when the women made a return trip to the final four, we were busy (in Salem ourselves) but if we hadn't made it, I'm don't think we would have travelled halfway across the country for it, especially because we'd been just a few years earlier.



So, if the finals should move west do you think that it might affect the NESCAC fans, especially for those fans who might have had the "Salem Experience" over the years?

[madzillagd]

JG - As somebody that would be coming from CA, it would be a welcome change.  I had to make the call last year when Williams headed to Salem on whether or not I'd go. I decided to hold out and vowed to be in Atlanta if they made it that far.  My brother, who flies out of Spokane, WA decided on going.  For me Salem would have been 10+ hours of flight time and $1K+   He was able to get there in about 8 hrs of flight time and about $600.  Williams ended up losing that first game and my bro was left hanging out in Salem for 2 days while the team and everybody else took off for home.  Salem is just a very difficult place to get to.  Calvin would be half the travel time for me to get there and considerable less cost.

[nescac1]

I am biased, personally, towards Salem as a Virginia resident.  But taking that aside, and taking an objective look ...

Plusses: perfectly-sized arena, usually good weather that time of year, friendly community of people who might be more interested in the event because there is not much else going on locally, tradition, cheap hotel rooms
Minuses: inconveniently located for all schools, fans, families not on the East Coast (and not terribly convenient for anyone outside of the Mid-Atlantic or South regions), no major travel arteries nearby, basically nothing to do and no place particularly great to eat in the area.

Honestly, while I personally am happy the Final Four is in Salem, and while the pros and cons are fairly evenly-balanced, I think it makes in the aggregate more sense to have it in someplace a bit more centrally-located, and closer to major travel arteries (major airports, in particular).

[amh63]

Considering the "normal " crowds, for such events...I  would go for a place that is " neutral "...off a campus.  Having said that , I would pull for a site near a major airport, adequate hotels, and a good selection of eateries and places of interest...would like both the men's and women's to be the same.  If there was an adequate venue for the men's crowds, I would suggest the birthplace of basketball..Springfield.  Also the Home of  volleyball , Dr.  Suess.  Would settle for Hartford, Ct.  Lots of direct flights into NYC, Providence and Bradley...cutting time and flight costs.

[nescac1]

Agree with amh63 that it makes sense to have the men's and women's final fours in the same spot -- more fans converging, probably more fans watching games, make it the center of the D-3 universe for one weekend (and in the not-uncommon occurrence when a school has representation in both Final Fours, the fans can then attend both). 

[P'bearfan]

Considering the "normal " crowds, for such events...I  would go for a place that is " neutral "...off a campus.  Having said that , I would pull for a site near a major airport, adequate hotels, and a good selection of eateries and places of interest...would like both the men's and women's to be the same.  If there was an adequate venue for the men's crowds, I would suggest the birthplace of basketball..Springfield.  Also the Home of  volleyball , Dr.  Suess.  Would settle for Hartford, Ct.  Lots of direct flights into NYC, Providence and Bradley...cutting time and flight costs.

While playing in Springfield has great symbolic significance, Bradley is NOT a major airport and fares are quite high  (this is my wife's hometown and we would drive from Boston b/c of the better fares).  Hartford - uggh and flying into and out of LaGuardia is its own challenge.   

Location is a real challenge...to get lower travel costs and better hotel choices you need to be near Boston, Newark / LGA, Atlanta, Chicago, DFW.....but finding the right size arena becomes a challenge.   I might suggest the Palestra - historic basketball venue, right size, decent air fares and hotel choices.   Negatives - weather isn't great; East Coast bias.....and have you met Philly fans?? (my hometown  )

[Mr. Ypsi]

Agree with amh63 that it makes sense to have the men's and women's final fours in the same spot -- more fans converging, probably more fans watching games, make it the center of the D-3 universe for one weekend (and in the not-uncommon occurrence when a school has representation in both Final Fours, the fans can then attend both).

I certainly would have appreciated that in 2012.  The first rounds of the men's tourney were in Holland, and I had the thrill of being present when IWU knocked off #1 Hope on their home floor in double overtime!  Fast forward two weeks, and both IWU teams are in the Final Four.  The women were at Holland again, but I decided to stay home so I could follow both teams.  I regretted my decision greatly when the men were defeated, while the women won their first ever Walnut-and-Bronze!  But if both tourneys had been the same location, I could have (probably) attended all the games.

[John Gleich]

Thanks for the insights... I sort of feel like the discussion (Salem vs. not Salem) was talked about throughout the year last year, along with whether the Final would be overshadowed if it was in Atlanta "under" the D-I championship.

I was more wondering about the specific location of Calvin... but I suppose it's just a guess because it hasn't happened yet!

[maineman]

Maineman-
Thanks for posting. Forgive my ignorance as primarily a NESCAC football guy but can someone explain about these travel guidelines and solo vs. partners etc....?

I am not expert, but with 11 teams, 1 team must go it alone each year.  You get it and then have the next 10 years with a partner.  Generally the partners are Midd-Will, Amh-Ham, Bow-Col, Tuf-Conn, Trin-Wes.  That is what it always is in hockey since Bates doesn't field a team.  For basketball, if is not the solo team, schools will shift around.  For example, if Conn is the solo, Bates might team up with Tufts.  This year, Midd is the solo so Will teams with Ham.  That is a rough approximation of how it works.

[madzillagd]

http://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/men/preseason-2014

The preseason All-American teams are out and my first reaction is: embarrassing. 


Since these are largely based on last year, here's the link to that for reference.
http://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/men/2013

[nescac1]

First, congrats to NESCAC on, as expected, having four guys on the team, including two on the first team.

But my next reaction, is, huh???   There is no center on the first team (Gamble is listed as a forward, although he really seems like more of a center).  Mayer is the best returning center in the country (and actually, I think Chas Cross, not Gamble if considered a center, is his number one competitor for that title).  He is probably one of the top 3-4 players in the country, period, and certainly one of the top two players in NESCAC.  No IDEA why he is relegated to the third team.  Also, Epley is in no way, shape or form a guard.  He plays the 3/4 positions.  And while I think he deserves his place on the second team (where I figured he would start the season), it seems really, really odd that Epley would be ranked above Mayer on this list. 

Finally, Aaron Walton-Moss on the third team?  The guy is an absolute monster out there.  He should be a first-teamer for sure, and if he plays the entire season, I am confident that he will be.  If I could pick any guy from D-3 to start my team, I'd go Walton-Moss first, followed by Mayer and Toomey in some order.  (Of course I haven't seen a lot of guys, but of the guys I have seen, those are the three who most stood out to me).   

In the end, what matters is the final all-America team, and I have little doubt that if he stays healthy, Mayer will end the season as a first-team all-American.  He has improved by leaps and bounds each year in his career, and I feel like he played like a first-team all-American even last year, so if he improves even incrementally, he is looking at a monster season.  When you consider the total package of shooting, post moves, passing, and ball-handling, he is by a wide margin the most offensively-gifted center I've ever seen in NESCAC, and his defensive and rebounding skills have been gradually improving to the point where he is now above-average in both categories. 

[My first team, for the record, would include Mayer at center, Walton-Moss and Gamble at forward, Kizell and Toomey at guard, or perhaps Cross in place of Kizell if position does not matter]. 

[nescac1]

One more point on Mayer.  Against a murderer's row of D-3 centers in the final five games of the year (Peter Kaasila, David Langon, Tommy Hannon, and Chris Kearney, the VWU center platoon being the only exception, but otherwise also big-time players), he averaged 19-9-2.5 plus 1.5 blocks per game, and shot 55 percent from the field.  The opposing starting centers combined to average 7 points and 7 boards per game.  He caught a bit of a break when Chris Kearney (they only guy in that group who gave him a lot of trouble) got injured missing a good chunk of the second half, but still, that is an enormously impressive body of work, all against top-25 teams, four of whom had really good big men of their own.  Not sure what else the guy has to do ....

(By way of comparison, Landon Gamble, in his five NCAA games, vs. roughly equivalent caliber of teams but not as strong individual opponents in the aggregate, averaged 15-5-1.5-0). 

[Panthernation]

He is probably one of the top 3-4 players in the country, period, and certainly one of the top two players in NESCAC.  No IDEA why he is relegated to the third team.

Agree, and then some. Here is some statistical analysis we did this summer based on which we concluded Mayer should have been a finalist (probably #2 behind JD) for National POY, as a junior. The stats suggest he is the best returning player in the country: http://sites.middlebury.edu/panthernation/2013/08/21/a-review-of-the-2012-13-poy-decision/

[Pat Coleman]

There have not always lately been five All-American quality pure centers -- you're right about Gamble being one of them, though, and I changed the label. About Epley, yeah, a 3/4 and we just never list guys as G/F ... or W or P or anything but G, F or C.

For Walton-Moss, it will be interesting to see how he holds up over an entire season for the first time, rather than joining at the semester.