MBB: NESCAC

[madzillagd]

In the end, what matters is the final all-America team, and I have little doubt that if he stays healthy, Mayer will end the season as a first-team all-American.

At this point I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one.  Yes, I think he will likely deserve to be First Team, but I don't think he's going to get placed as First Team based on the trend.  Here are the stats for Centers that made it last year...

Matthews (1st Team)    22.6 pts   14.7 rbs    .76 asts   3.24 tos   2.8 blks   .88 sts   
Kearney (2nd Team)     16.7 pts    7.0  rbs    1.8 asts   1.8 tos     2 blks      .86  sts
Mayer  (3rd Team)        17.7 pts    8.8 rbs     2.3 asts    2 tos      1.2 blks     .61 sts
Cross   (4th team)        15.8 pts    8.5 rbs     1.6 asts   1.4 tos    1.6 blks    1.6 sts
Hannon (HM)                11.4 pts    7.1 rbs     1.6 asts   1.3 tos     .31 blks    .78 sts

Mayer put up the second best line last year and got stuck on the 3rd team.  Not sure how that happens but it did. 

Looks like Pat just changed Gamble to a C while I was typing this up (which really isn't going to change my argument much because bottom line I don't think Gamble is a first team guy).

As for the Forwards(now with a C) that did get selected for this years First team: 
Benefield (N/A)             17.9 pts    7.3 rbs     .44 asts   1.5 tos     .56 blks    .93 sts
Schleigh (3rd Team)     21.4 pts    9.9 rbs     3.1 asts   2.5 tos     .93 blks     2.2 sts
Gamble (1st Team)       14.5 pts    5.8 rbs     1.8 asts   2.2 tos     .34 blks    .53 sts

If you take a look at the stats for the guys mentioned, there are a few things that clearly stand out to me.  Mayer was the 2nd best C stat wise last year in the country - but he didn't get recognized as such.  With the graduation of Matthews, Mayer logically would be First Team Center choice out of the gate just based on the fact that he's the best scorer of the centers, he's the best rebounder of the centers, oh...and he's the best passer of the centers.  Other than those minor details he really doesn't have a claim to the spot.   

The Gamble choice is a bit of a mess both for last year and for this year.  My argument on the final list last year was that Mayer was clearly better than Gamble and should have been 1st Team.  The response to that argument was that Gamble was a F and Mayer was a C, therefore they really weren't in direct competition even though casual fans all knew Gamble was playing C (the team has him listed as a F on their site).  If Gamble was a F, then clearly Schleigh had a much more dominant year averaging 6.9 pts, 4.1 rebs, 1.3 asts more than Gamble did - which is essentially the stat line of having another player on the floor.  As a F, Gamble doesn't stack up against the guys that finished beneath him.

As for this year, Gamble has now been switched to a C which doesn't really help his selection since he clearly isn't the best C in the country (I realize it's too late to go back and change it after the list has been released).  Had he been rated as a C to begin with, he likely would be 3rd Team behind Mayer and Cross. 

If Mayer continues to put up the best numbers for the Cs I do hope he gets recognized for it and makes the First team, but I'm not going to hold my breath. 

[nescac1]

Gotcha, Pat.  As for Walton-Moss, I would think that it will actually help him to play a full year, since for once he won't start the season behind the eight-ball, needing several weeks to work his way into game shape and to find his groove on the court.  I think if he finally plays a full year he will have an absolutely monster year.  I am wracking my brain for a D-3 equivalent of his skill set and body type, and it's really hard to think of.  The closest guy who comes to mind is Jeff Gibbs of Otterbein, who while much more of an interior-oreinted player, was a similar type of athletic freak for his size.   

As for Mayer, I do find it cryptic why he doesn't get more all-American love.  It's not as if D3hoops has an aversion to heaping awards on Williams guys -- Schultz, Wang, Epley, Whittington, etc. etc. all received ample recognition.  So to me, Mayer is an outlier, and I can't really understand it.  Certainly, based on statistics, Mayer just absolutely dominates the argument vs. Gamble: as noted, Mayer is a better rebounder, passer, distance shooter, foul-shooter, and shot-blocker, and they are roughly even as interior scorers. 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Walton-Moss is an exceptional talent, but he lacks some leadership skills and discipline that often make the difference on a team like this.  The hope is that with a full season under his belt, he'll be able to showcase those skills more thoroughly this year.

As for an outsiders opinion of Mayer - he's super talented, well disciplined, skilled - but when I watch him play I feel like he's not taking full advantage of his size.  He just doesn't seem to be as physical as he could be.  That's certainly something he can change this year, but his game is not typical for d3 players of his size and that can throw people off watching him.

[nescac1]

I would absolutely agree that Mayer is not an overly physical player (although over time he has added a lot of bulk and strength which has helped him at least better establish and hold his position in the post on both ends of the court).  But he doesn't need to overpower guys to be effective (not would he be as successful if he tried to do so, it's just not playing to his natural attributes) due to his superior footwork, shooting touch, and wide array of post moves. It's like punishing Olajuwon for not being Shaq.

[Mr. Ypsi]

With the different way they are calling games this season, not being a physical player may turn out to be a plus!

[madzillagd]

As for an outsiders opinion of Mayer - he's super talented, well disciplined, skilled - but when I watch him play I feel like he's not taking full advantage of his size.  He just doesn't seem to be as physical as he could be.  That's certainly something he can change this year, but his game is not typical for d3 players of his size and that can throw people off watching him.

Well I wouldn't go down the NESCAC1 path of Olajuwan, maybe more of a Pau Gasol, but I don't see how this matters when he produces the numbers he does.  Mayer grabbed 10+ rebounds in 17 games last year.  By comparison, a much more physical player in Gamble only did that 3 times.  Mayer scored 20+ pts 14 times, Gamble did it 6 times.  I think he's proven very effective despite not being that physical and not sure how one could say he isn't taking advantage of his size based on the results. 

Mayer was tied for 7th in the nation last year with 16 double-doubles. 
First Team AA Matthews was #1 in the nation with 20 double-doubles
2nd Team AA Kearney was tied for #77 in the nation with 8 double-doubles. 

[amh63]

Saw the D3 pre-season selection.  Went to do my Fall yard work, as I 'm not fully tuned into BB until after the close of Amherst's football season.  Did expect lots of posts after scanning the lists of 25 picks.  Recognize a number of players and many that I have  no knowledge of at this time...got to do my homework.
Though, I enjoy the posts and opinions, my view of the pre- season picks is more like who to keep an eye on.  Considering the number of D3 BB teams and the number of starting players...thousands of players when considering rotation level players...being picked in the group of 25 in the preseason is important....the order is secondary, IMO.  Picked Players have the " spotlight" on them....and their teams will also have notice during the season to perform.  How teams and players do will all be settled at the end of the season.  Then...when the dust settles, we should know better what players played at All- American levels.

[Charles]

As for an outsiders opinion of Mayer - he's super talented, well disciplined, skilled - but when I watch him play I feel like he's not taking full advantage of his size.  He just doesn't seem to be as physical as he could be.  That's certainly something he can change this year, but his game is not typical for d3 players of his size and that can throw people off watching him.

Well I wouldn't go down the NESCAC1 path of Olajuwan, maybe more of a Pau Gasol, but I don't see how this matters when he produces the numbers he does.  Mayer grabbed 10+ rebounds in 17 games last year.  By comparison, a much more physical player in Gamble only did that 3 times.  Mayer scored 20+ pts 14 times, Gamble did it 6 times.  I think he's proven very effective despite not being that physical and not sure how one could say he isn't taking advantage of his size based on the results. 

Mayer was tied for 7th in the nation last year with 16 double-doubles. 
First Team AA Matthews was #1 in the nation with 20 double-doubles
2nd Team AA Kearney was tied for #77 in the nation with 8 double-doubles.

In the Williams v Catholic game, Kearny totally dominated Mayer, even in the paint wher he gave up some height. It wasn't until Kearny was "hurt" that Mayer was able to out play the freshman forward they put in the game at the 5. Let's just see how he does this year.

[nescac1]

Charles, ummm, that is simply untrue.  It is true that Mayer dominated after Kearney's injury.  But Kearney played more than half the game.  And Mayer played great the entire game -- 27 points, 10 boards, 5 blocks, 12-19 shooting speaks for itself.  In fact, Kearney and Mayer were EXACTLY even in the first half, before Kearney got hurt: each had 13 points and 4 boards (Mayer also posted three blocks in that half).

http://ephsports.williams.edu/sports/mbkb/2012-13/boxscores/20130309_fky3.xml?view=box1

And Kearney was, if you recall, a senior second-team all-American, so it's not like Mayer was going up against chopped liver. 

[middhoops]

Mayer was 12-19 with 10 boards against a very solid Catholic team.  Three of his misses were treys.  The interesting stat however was that he only took 2 free throws.  Every NESCAC team would like to replicate the defense that kept him off the line like that.

[Old Guy]

Interesting that Mayer could hardly get off the bench his frosh year (Williams had that much depth at center). That will affect his career numbers. Must be nice, other NESCAC teams likely say with a sigh, to have a player of Mayer's size and skill and not have room for him on the floor. He undoubtedly improved going up against Whittington and Emerson every day in practice. 

[Clutch]

First, congrats to NESCAC on, as expected, having four guys on the team, including two on the first team.

But my next reaction, is, huh???   There is no center on the first team (Gamble is listed as a forward, although he really seems like more of a center).  Mayer is the best returning center in the country (and actually, I think Chas Cross, not Gamble if considered a center, is his number one competitor for that title).  He is probably one of the top 3-4 players in the country, period, and certainly one of the top two players in NESCAC.  No IDEA why he is relegated to the third team.  Also, Epley is in no way, shape or form a guard.  He plays the 3/4 positions.  And while I think he deserves his place on the second team (where I figured he would start the season), it seems really, really odd that Epley would be ranked above Mayer on this list. 

Finally, Aaron Walton-Moss on the third team?  The guy is an absolute monster out there.  He should be a first-teamer for sure, and if he plays the entire season, I am confident that he will be.  If I could pick any guy from D-3 to start my team, I'd go Walton-Moss first, followed by Mayer and Toomey in some order.  (Of course I haven't seen a lot of guys, but of the guys I have seen, those are the three who most stood out to me).   

In the end, what matters is the final all-America team, and I have little doubt that if he stays healthy, Mayer will end the season as a first-team all-American.  He has improved by leaps and bounds each year in his career, and I feel like he played like a first-team all-American even last year, so if he improves even incrementally, he is looking at a monster season.  When you consider the total package of shooting, post moves, passing, and ball-handling, he is by a wide margin the most offensively-gifted center I've ever seen in NESCAC, and his defensive and rebounding skills have been gradually improving to the point where he is now above-average in both categories. 

[My first team, for the record, would include Mayer at center, Walton-Moss and Gamble at forward, Kizell and Toomey at guard, or perhaps Cross in place of Kizell if position does not matter]. 

That would be some team, with those three ! ! ! !

[AmherstStudent05]

As with the preseason top 25 polls, I have a hard time getting too worked up about preseason All American teams.  They are fun for generating and framing discussion (particularly during the interminably long offseason) but they are of course speculative projections about an upcoming season where nothing has been earned to date.  Accordingly, while I may disagree with a particular selection or ranking, it is hard for me to conclude that any team or player has been aggrieved or slighted.  The year end rankings and awards -- where we assess actual accomplishments of teams and players over the course of a season -- are of course what really matter.

All that being said, I did take interest in the All American teams recently released on d3hoops.  I need Walzy to weigh in here, but if the First Team played the Third Team in an actual game (with no subs I guess), I am not sure I would favor the First Team by much, if I would even favor them at all.  I am not sure this is a criticism of the choices of Pat & Co.--who surely know significantly more about d3hoops as a whole than I could even ever pretend to know--as much as it is a reflection of the tremendous and diverse array of talent in d3hoops.

Speaking of which, on this whole issue of Gamble vs. Mayer that Madzilla and nescac1 have been talking about recently, I am not sure that the disparity between those two -- either quantitatively or qualitatively -- is nearly so great or as obvious as those two Williams boosters seem to suggest.  I seem to recall that back when Madzilla first raised the statistical comparison between these two back in the Spring, another poster (can't remember who, but think it may have been AncientSon, and in any event I am pretty sure the poster was an Amherst grad because the post was particularly well-written and intelligent) that Gamble's numbers almost certainly need to be adjusted to account for the slower pace of game that North Central tends to play, particularly relative to Williams' up-tempo style.  I thought this was an excellent point, but maybe others disagree.  Furthermore, although I have only seen Gamble play twice, he definitely had all the makings of a legit d3 superstar (though he could have shot his free throws a bit better down the stretch in Salem).  To be clear, if I had to choose, I would probably still take Mayer, but it would be a VERY close call for me and I think the gap between the two in both statistical output and overall talent is much much less than you have been saying or implying, but perhaps I am just misreading you guys.

As for Mayer, I was not yet posting on this board when the last year's All-NESCAC selections were made (if only PantherNation had made its argument that Kalema should start over Toomey a few months earlier), but as the great Midd Panther Bits can attest, I would have selected Mayer as the conference POY (in basically a coin flip with Toomey).  He is truly a great player.  One reason why I think he may get overlooked some -- to the extent he does -- is I have noticed that he has a tendency to have a bunch of "quiet" 20-10 games.  When the Maker offense is really humming, it is often so smooth and well integrated that I think Mayer's contributions can get somewhat diminished.

Anyway, this is a terrible day for a Jeff to praise a Williams man.  The legendary Amh63 is right.  It is not quite time to turn our attention to basketball.  We still need to focus on football.  Go Jeffs!!!!  (and Go Bants I guess)

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

As for an outsiders opinion of Mayer - he's super talented, well disciplined, skilled - but when I watch him play I feel like he's not taking full advantage of his size.  He just doesn't seem to be as physical as he could be.  That's certainly something he can change this year, but his game is not typical for d3 players of his size and that can throw people off watching him.

Well I wouldn't go down the NESCAC1 path of Olajuwan, maybe more of a Pau Gasol, but I don't see how this matters when he produces the numbers he does.  Mayer grabbed 10+ rebounds in 17 games last year.  By comparison, a much more physical player in Gamble only did that 3 times.  Mayer scored 20+ pts 14 times, Gamble did it 6 times.  I think he's proven very effective despite not being that physical and not sure how one could say he isn't taking advantage of his size based on the results. 

Mayer was tied for 7th in the nation last year with 16 double-doubles. 
First Team AA Matthews was #1 in the nation with 20 double-doubles
2nd Team AA Kearney was tied for #77 in the nation with 8 double-doubles.

I'm just giving my impressions.  I haven't watched him as much as you guys - I only saw the tournament games last year.  I'm not saying he isn't a great player, just that on first impression he doesn't appear to be as good as he could be, given his size and skills.  That impression, that he's not fully realizing his potential, can be a distraction from what he actually does.  Just trying to explain a possible reason for his placement.

I don't think there's a more talented big in the country - at least not one I've seen.  Still, I find it hard to believe he doesn't get 15 boards a game with what he's working with.  Perhaps, like Olajuwon, he'll continue to be underrated as an individual because his greatest assets aren't things that show up in the box score, but do lead to improving team performance.

[middhoops]

Vandy74 and I went to the Midd intra-squad scrimmage on Saturday.  Our job, ostensibly, was to report to Old Guy, as he sent us a list of quite specific questions.  While we can't give away anything juicy, we can tell you that James Jensen has been practicing and had his first one on one contact practice with a coach after the scrimmage.  He says definitively that he'll play against Stevenson in a couple weeks.
The Panthers really do have some surprises for you, fellow NESCAC junkies.
Vandy and I were highly impressed by newcomers and improved returnees.  This team can score.
The loss of Nolan Thompson is in everyone's mind.  However, on balance they look like they'll compensate just fine by the time conference games begin.
Don't miss the Alvernia game cast on Friday.  As I alluded to; you are in for a surprise (or two).