MBB: NESCAC

[Charles]

Does anyone know the NESCAC teams by year to make the NCAA tournament since they have been allowed to play in the postseason, including their regular season/conference records? My question is if Bowdoin doesn't finish third in the conference would they still have a chance to get in?

I've had little luck finding D3 post season data archived in any sport beyond the Final Four participants but I think most schools archive their seasons back to 1999-2000 which would let you find out most of what you want to know.  Only 4-5 years would be omitted. 

AmherstStudent05.....I appreciate your opinion regarding Middlebury's post season chances.  I agree that they can still play themselves right back into the picture.  The second half they played against Tufts is exactly what they should be able to do the rest of the way and that caliber of play can beat anyone left on their schedule.  As good as Amherst is don't forget last season's game between the schools and the feelings that will carry over from it.  If the Panthers did in fact right the ship Sunday afternoon that finale of the regular season should also have a lot at stake for both teams.

Vandy and NEHoops,

Here's a website from the NCAA that allows you to go back to 1933 and get year end records. It's not like the records that Vandy mentions that most schools archive but it should help. 

http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/careersearch

When the website comes up you need to click on school (they list all schools from all divisions), then the year that you want, then the sport. Then click on search. When that page comes up you will see the schools name. Click on that and the pages that I mention below will download. Only 2 pages. Many times the sheets are handwritten or typed with a typewriter (what's that ) Sometimes they are done by the SID sometimes by the Coach. Sometimes they can be quite messy with poor handwriting. These were year end reports that the NCAA required the teams to fill out and send in. Some schools were good and followed instructions well. Other schools, not so good.


You can get the team schedule, won-lost record (from which you can probably determine post-season play or not) conference record, and a stat sheet showing who was on the team and a number of relevant stats for each player.

As a for instance I pulled up Amherst from 1993-94 and it shows they were 22-5 that year, with a 9-3 conference record in the NESCAC. The final games they played were against Worcester Tech, a win, Brandeis, a win, Colby, a win, Franklin & Marshall, a win down there, and Lebanon Valley, a loss also on F&M's court. I'm guessing, since I assume that there wasn't a conference tournament back then, that the Colby game was the final regular season contest and that the LJ's went to Lancaster, home of F&M, to play in the 1st round of the NCAA's. They won that game and played the next day against Leb Valley and lost.

I pulled up Middlebury for the same year but they are listed as a member of the ECAC with an overall record of 6-16 and a conference record of 6-13.

Williams for that year, 93-94 was 22-4 but in the space marked conference it says...NONE and for conference record it says...NA
Final games were a win against Worcester State and a loss to Mass-Dartmouth.

3 teams and 3 different designations. And I would have thought they were all in the NESCAC at that time. I didn't follow the league back then so I wouldn't know. Probably Old Guy and amh63 would though.

Anyway I had this website in my favorites file and though I would put it out there in case it helps. You can also go back and find individual players records as well, if you're looking for someone's career stats.   

so much for getting any work done today. great website!

[amh63]

Magicman.....thanks for the link and ref.  Back in the early 90's, my basketball interest at the D3 level was not as intense.  My two sons were in Amherst at the time and I was working hard to support their interests and lifestyle   Was following the on campus sports of their friends/classmates and their indulgence...rugby, crew, intramural BB, etc.
Surprising to me is this interest in stats.....level of.....one would think this was Baseball!

[ronk]

Magicman,
   Thanks, also. Scranton is missing some stats over the years including the rebounds for 1 season for arguably our finest player ever(the year I was on the frosh team and saw him perform every day-but no connection ). I enjoy the web site already and have passed it on to our SID for his future research. 

[grabtherim]

Great site.  I am not usually a stats guy as much as others.  I prefer to let my eyes tell the story.  That said, it is interesting to compare the stats of two guards who's games were always fun to watch, especially when they went head to head, Wang and Wolfin.  As expected Wang had a better scoring average while Wolfin dished out more assists per game.  Wolfin also had a lot more turnovers many of which came from trying to complete passes only he and the fans in the stands could see.  Most importantly, both had similar win totals over their careers, the top stat for a guard.  Two of the better competitors the league has seen over recent seasons.       

[old_hooper]

A couple comments on the Amherst win over Wes yesterday:  the last LJ loss to a NESCAC team was Jan 17, 2012, almost two years ago.  The streak is now 27 in a row.  As a LJ fan it is a little  braggadocio but it is also a phenomenal accomplishment.  This will be a real challenge to keep this streak going over the next three on the road games with Bates, Tufts and Williams.  All you can do is take them one at a time.

The other point I want to make is that Coach Hixon has seemed to change his rotation after the 1st of the year from what he was working on earlier.  Never have seen him do this before at this point in a season.  With Pollack return, mussachia and Berman minutes have almost disappeared.  Gach is now working into the rotation with double digit minutes that he did not see earlier in the season.  He has provided offense that was not happening from the bench with his threat from three range.  He had 3 last night in 11 minutes of action.  Kalema moves to the PG for Toomey when he is rarely out (Berman was put in earlier in the season) and we are seeing more of 7 man rotation now with Nabatoff and Mussachia seeing spotty minutes as the 8th man.  Certainly not questioning this because it is working.  Gach's offense last night was huge since Toomey and Green were struggling and those first half treys were the big difference in the separation at the half time score. 

Looks like the LJs maybe hitting stride now.  Kalema seems to becoming more consistent Killian and Pollack are so valuable and solid both ways.  Hopefully the Jeffs will be shooting well Friday night in the pressure cooker at Bates and are prepared to play some good defense on the perimeter. They have played well there over the years with the exception of the nightmare loss in  2010BT (before Toomey).

[amh63]

Maybe a little premature but does anyone know the Hosting priority in the post-season sites...between the MBB vs WBB teams.  Last season...being that the MBB title game went to Atlanta...changed the order a little, I believe.
For Amherst teams this question often comes up.  It is always good to be at home in the post-season.
Remember Amherst going to play at WPI one recent year and up the far reaches of upper NY state another year....due to the WBB team had priority.  On the other hand I maybe all messed up on the specifics...not that is surprising.

[magicman]

Magicman,
   Thanks, also. Scranton is missing some stats over the years including the rebounds for 1 season for arguably our finest player ever(the year I was on the frosh team and saw him perform every day-but no connection ). I enjoy the web site already and have passed it on to our SID for his future research.

ronk, Vandy, amh63, grabtherim, and Charles,
Glad to help out. I came across this web site several years ago when I was trying to find information on a certain player.  He 's a good friend of mine who graduated from Union back in 1981. At the time he finished his 4 years of roundball he was Union's all time leading scorer with well over 1700 points. At some point in the 1990's he went back to the college on the night some young fellow was going to break his record. We talked about how many points Joe might have scored if they had the 3 point shot back then. He was the point guard but also the best shooter on the team. A large number of his shots were from 3 point range and of course didn't get the benefit of those extra points. I was able to look up his statistics, find out how many field goals he had in his 4 years, and factor in a percentage, that he felt was a reasonable number, to get a rough idea of how many 3 pointers he would have had in his college career there. We'll never know for sure but I felt confident that he would have broken the 2000 point mark, if the same rules we have today were in place then.  And that doesn't take into consideration that if he knew those long distance bombs were going to be worth 3 points he probably would have taken more shots than he was credited with.        

[7express]

Maybe a little premature but does anyone know the Hosting priority in the post-season sites...between the MBB vs WBB teams.  Last season...being that the MBB title game went to Atlanta...changed the order a little, I believe.
For Amherst teams this question often comes up.  It is always good to be at home in the post-season.
Remember Amherst going to play at WPI one recent year and up the far reaches of upper NY state another year....due to the WBB team had priority.  On the other hand I maybe all messed up on the specifics...not that is surprising.

IIRC, in odd numbered years women get priority hosting in first round, men get priority in second round.  In even numbered years, it's reversed: men get hosting priority in first round, women get hosting priority in second.  That's why with the Amherst men's bye, both the men & women were able to host in the first round 2 seasons ago, but in the second round the women got the priority first, so the LJ women stayed home in Amherst while the men got shipped out to Lancaster, PA.  That was before the combined final 4 which screwed up last years schedule, so even though this will be an even numbered year, it's possible it can go to the odd numbered year set up (women hosting priority in 1st; men in second) since we skipped over 2013 since you could play 3 games at a site since the men only played once a week.

[grabtherim]

Magicman,
   Thanks, also. Scranton is missing some stats over the years including the rebounds for 1 season for arguably our finest player ever(the year I was on the frosh team and saw him perform every day-but no connection ). I enjoy the web site already and have passed it on to our SID for his future research.

We talked about how many points Joe might have scored if they had the 3 point shot back then.      

For anyone who remembers like I do, it's fun to think of what the numbers would have been for Pistol Pete if there was a three point line.  Pete averaged 44 ppg over 3 years at LSU. With the 3-pointer he would have been over 50. 

[Old Guy]

For anyone who remembers like I do, it's fun to think of what the numbers would have been for Pistol Pete if there was a three point line.  Pete averaged 44 ppg over 3 years at LSU. With the 3-pointer he would have been over 50. grabtherim

I made this argument a couple of years ago on behalf of players who not only played before the three-point shot, but also in an era when frosh were ineligible (so just three years of stats) and when seasons had fewer contests. Midd's Sonny Dennis '55 played in those days under those circumstances and amassed 1213 points.

FormerBant, a regular poster till he went to the pros, countered with a cogent argument, contending that players prior to the three-point era never saw the kind of defensive sophistication and intensity that is played today.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

For anyone who remembers like I do, it's fun to think of what the numbers would have been for Pistol Pete if there was a three point line.  Pete averaged 44 ppg over 3 years at LSU. With the 3-pointer he would have been over 50. grabtherim

I made this argument a couple of years ago on behalf of players who not only played before the three-point shot, but also in an era when frosh were ineligible (so just three years of stats) and when seasons had fewer contests. Midd's Sonny Dennis '55 played in those days under those circumstances and amassed 1213 points.

FormerBant, a regular poster till he went to the pros, countered with a cogent argument, contending that players prior to the three-point era never saw the kind of defensive sophistication and intensity that is played today.

Yeah, if someone is going to settle for a 23 foot shot when its worth the same as a five footer, why not let them take the chance.  Even 40% from deep is not a great field goal percentage when they're both worth two points.  Defenses would definitely change.

[middhoops]

Wait 'til Vandy74 wakes up.  He's an encyclopedia of Pistol Pete and updated stats.  As a freshman at Vanderbilt he got to see Maravich light 'em up.

[amh63]

Nice discussions all and truly some walks down memory lane.   Talking only about the college level, with rules changes, defensive schemes, etc....there is the factor of the players themselves coming into college...even at the D3 level.  Knowing the value given by coaches to 3-point shots, incoming recruits develop their skills accordingly.  I put the question, that today's players are better shooters, stronger, etc....and that coaches work more on developing defensive skills and mental toughness.   Imo, in basketball, comparing stats from different eras is really a little like an "apple vs orange" comparison.  Remember the era when dunking was not allowed or there was not a shot clock...lower scores, fewer shots.  I hated the UNC stalls by Dean Smith...even when he had great players.  Fewer teams went into the post seasons in the past.     Still with all that said, it is fun to speculate.  Back in the late 50's and early sixties, I can say that the Amherst players could not make a 3-point shot.   I may not be allowed into LeFrak with that comment, me thinks.

[creakyknees]

In addition to the 3 point line, the mid-80's institution of the shot clock also impacted the number of points scored in NESCAC games.  With no shot clock, I remember games in which the winning score was often in the high 40's or low 50's as teams stalled (the old NC four corners), and worked offensive sets for minutes at a time. 

[middhoops]

Hey Old Guy,

I remember two of your team mates who would have been good 3 pt. shooters.  What about you? 
Gerry Alaimo would have had Clubbo and Rich B. launching bombs.