MBB: NESCAC

[amh63]

Madz....I actually looked up the numbers to see if I could cover my bet.  For the total season to date...counting the tournament games...which Green had more blocks than in the three games than Mayer, while Mayer may have one more  steal....I came up with 19 blocks by both players and Mayer having one or two more steals than Green.  Your numbers are averages which gives Mayer the advantage since he played in about 4 less games.  I would call this a toss up.  I will correct a statement.  Green is 5 inches shorter than Mayer based on listed height.  He also averages over 5 rebounds a game on a team that share rebounds.  My point was to illustrate that Conner Green is not an one dimensional player. 
If you want to continue to play this game...than we can compare who is the best outside shooter....knowing that Mayer has taken few outside shots this season.

[grabtherim]

All NESCAC Selections have been announced:

First Team: Hart, Kizel, Mayer, Swords, Toomey

Second Team: Hudnut, Killian, Madlinger, Robinson, Vadas

POY: Toomey

DPOY: Swords

COY: Hixon

40% of the Top 10 players in the league from the Garden State of New Jersey.  No other state with more than 10%.  May or may not be a trend, but coaches and alumni spotters would be well advised to pay attention to the high quality of basketball being played in NJ. 

[AmherstStudent05]

My thoughts.  First, I will start with the bad.  How on Earth is Duncan Robinson not named to the First Team?! I understand there is a preference for rewarding upperclassmen and I respect that inclination, I really do.  But at some point the facts simply get in the way.  How can you tell me that Duncan didn't have one of the top 5 seasons in NESCAC play this year.  As a reminder, his conference numbers are as follows: 18.9 ppg, 60.8 fg%, 52.5 3pt %, 5.2 rpg and an assist to turnover ratio of 2:1 (interestingly, the NESCAC press release cites his season numbers, not the conference numbers that Bucket said were all that are to be considered).  While there are some other decisions I would have done differently, this is the only one that makes absolutely no sense to me.

Now for the good.

First, even with this snub, Duncan is still the first freshman in the "NESCAC Modern Era" (2000-01, which is when the NESCAC Tournament started and as far back as records are kept on the conference website and it is just about the time I came to Amherst, so I think it works well for everyone) to be named to an All-NESCAC Team.

Second, Aaron Toomey joins Andrew Olson as the only player in the NESCAC modern era to win two straight Player of the Year awards. (Again, the press release says they are the only two players "in league history" to earn back to back player of the year honors.  I don't know if PoY was awarded before 2001, but if it was I would have to think that Nogelo and that Colby guy from the 80s everyone talks about would have accomplished this feat as well, but maybe not).

Third, Aaron Toomey and Joey Kizel join Tyler Rhoten as the only players in the modern era to earn three straight spots on the NESCAC First Team.  That is truly a remarkable accomplishment. (Adam Choice, Ryan Sharry, Steve Zieja, and Andrew Olson all made the Second Team as sophomores before getting First Team recognition in their junior and senior years.  Sharry, Zieja and Olson of course also were eventually named PoY.  The other mention has to go to James Wang.  James made the First Team as a sophomore and a junior.  I think most everyone would agree that, had he been healthy his senior season, he would have just about been a stone cold lock for the First Team and would have been a strong contender for PoY with Sharry and Toomey.)

Again, these awards just underscore how much Toomey, Kizel and Mayer have meant to the NESCAC these past four years.  These three players have combined for 8 First Team selections and 2 PoY nods.  Amherst, Williams and Midd have dominated the conference the past few years and for most of that time these three players have been the best players on their respective teams. (Toomey has clearly been Amherst's best player the past 3 years, Mayer has been Williams's for the past 2, and while PN might disagree, I think Joey has clearly been Midd's best player for the past 2 as well, and, with all due respect to the legendary Sharry, I think Joey has been Midd's top go-to player for the past 2.5 years.)

The Class of 2014, led by these three superstars, has truly been one for the ages in NESCAC play.  On the flip side, whether related or not, the Class of 2015 (thus far at least) has not been that impressive.  So far, John Swords is the only member of that class to make an All-NESCAC team.

A related point.  Last year, noo underclassmen made an All-NESCAC team.  This year, there were three selections (and Sabety easily could have been a fourth in my view).  The composition of the NESCAC is finally starting to change.  Whatever happens next year, NESCAC play will certainly look much different than it has the past 3 years.

But, for now, congrats again to all those honored. 

[amh63]

Toad 22....thanks for your viewpoint.  I respect your opinion and the points raised.  I specially do not remember the time at the moment when I made that judgement call of slowdown connected to not scoring.  I do remember that there was the period when the Williams players trying to press Amherst,,,to get the ball from Aaron.  Even saw a double team on Aaron near my side of the game....with one of the players, Mayer reaching for the ball.  I thought that Mayer could even get called for a foul....maybe foul out.  During that period Aaron did go to the foul line..and others.  Williams would counter with a  three...many missing.  The stats show that Williams hit only one out of 12 attempts in the 2nd half.  Amherst would counter with a fast break basket...remember one in which Aaron threw the ball to George for a two handed dunk.  The lead started to increase.  It was when Amherst again had a fast break situation...ahead of the defenders..Conner Green got the ball....I thought he may go for a dunk....when he stopped and with a smile/grin on his face just bounced the ball.
I then knew that Hixon wanted what I call a slowdown.  That is what I recall.  Not trying to imply anything more.

[madzillagd]

Madz....I actually looked up the numbers to see if I could cover my bet.  For the total season to date...counting the tournament games...which Green had more blocks than in the three games than Mayer, while Mayer may have one more  steal....I came up with 19 blocks by both players and Mayer having one or two more steals than Green.  Your numbers are averages which gives Mayer the advantage since he played in about 4 less games.  I would call this a toss up.  I will correct a statement.  Green is 5 inches shorter than Mayer based on listed height.  He also averages over 5 rebounds a game on a team that share rebounds.  My point was to illustrate that Conner Green is not an one dimensional player. 
If you want to continue to play this game...than we can compare who is the best outside shooter....knowing that Mayer has taken few outside shots this season.

I'm not playing a game, just not sure what you are looking at.  The NESCAC stats have these guys listed with the following info...

Mayer - 22 gp.   19 Total blocks.  17 Total Steals.  Average .9  & .8
Greene - 26 gp.  17 total blocks.  16 total steals.  Average .7 & .6

Not sure where you are seeing the 19 blocks for Greene. 

[AmherstStudent05]

Madz....I actually looked up the numbers to see if I could cover my bet.  For the total season to date...counting the tournament games...which Green had more blocks than in the three games than Mayer, while Mayer may have one more  steal....I came up with 19 blocks by both players and Mayer having one or two more steals than Green.  Your numbers are averages which gives Mayer the advantage since he played in about 4 less games.  I would call this a toss up.  I will correct a statement.  Green is 5 inches shorter than Mayer based on listed height.  He also averages over 5 rebounds a game on a team that share rebounds.  My point was to illustrate that Conner Green is not an one dimensional player. 
If you want to continue to play this game...than we can compare who is the best outside shooter....knowing that Mayer has taken few outside shots this season.

If the NESCAC stats have any such numbers listed for "Greene" I would be slightly troubled.

I'm not playing a game, just not sure what you are looking at.  The NESCAC stats have these guys listed with the following info...

Mayer - 22 gp.   19 Total blocks.  17 Total Steals.  Average .9  & .8
Greene - 26 gp.  17 total blocks.  16 total steals.  Average .7 & .6

Not sure where you are seeing the 19 blocks for Greene.

[middhoops]

Aaron Toomey was indeed again the POY.
I wonder though, if each of us had to pick one player to add to our non Eph squad; who would we take?

Give me Duncan Robinson.  Not even close.

[madzillagd]

One man's Greene is another man's Kizzel.

- Confucius

[toad22]

If I could pick only one guy, I'd surely pick a freshman! Those seniors will be gone no later than 2 1/2 weeks from now! If I had to pick a single player to be on my team tomorrow, I'd pick Toomey. He is, in my opinion, the best NESCAC player of this century. I've never seen a player control games so completely as Toomey does. He always seems to know just what to do in any situation. In the last 25 years, the only other player in the NESCAC, that I've seen, who could consistently take over and control games like Toomey was Mike Nogelo of Williams in the mid 90s.

[lefrakenstein]

Congrats to Duncan Robinson, I think it's awesome that he is the first freshman to ever be named to an all-nescac team. I had always been under the impression that freshman were simply not allowed to be included. Given that he's been so good this year, I would bet that he received exactly 0 second team votes. I bet every coach either had him on their first team or decided not to vote for him at all b/c he's a freshman.

[lefrakenstein]

Congrats to Duncan Robinson, I think it's awesome that he is the first freshman to ever be named to an all-nescac team. I had always been under the impression that freshman were simply not allowed to be included. Given that he's been so good this year, I would bet that he received exactly 0 second team votes. I bet every coach either had him on their first team or decided not to vote for him at all b/c he's a freshman.

Two players, who would you select for All-NESCAC?:

Player 1: 27 mpg, 16.3 ppg, 44% fg%, 40% 3pt%, 6.5 rpg, 0.5 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.8 bpg, PER 26.05,  Top 4 Nescac Team
Player 2: 28 mpg, 17.2 ppg, 38% fg%, 36% 3pt%, 3.3 rpg, 1.1 apg, 0.1 spg, 0.0 bgp, PER 21.95, Team missed tournament

Does anybody not take player 1? He scores only 1 fewer point per game, but scores much more efficiently and gives you much better rebound and hustle stats on a top team. Seems like a no-brainer.

Player 1 is Dylan Sinnickson. Player 2 is Matt Vadas.

Similar, but slightly less strong case could be made for Daniel Wohl.

How about player 3:
25 mpg, 14.8 ppg, 64% fg%, N/A 3pt%, 5.7 rpg, 0.1 apg, 0.4 spg, 2.9 bgp, PER 31.76, Team lost in nescac quarters

Player 3 is head-and-shoulders above player 1. Much better shooting %, gives you rebounding and is a top interior presence, judging by the blocks.

Player 3 is Hunter Sabety. If we're taking freshman now, this guy should have been in.

Ok, I'm done.

[GingerBaker]

Lefrak, I too was a bit miffed by the Vadas selection.  He scored a whole lot, but his percentages were rather low.  It could be a "career" award for him - a result of staying with the team when so many others had left (although here I'm admittedly out of my element.  I have no idea what the mechanics of the Conn Coll program are.  Others have speculated about their relatively high rate of departed players...), a result of him playing his hardest when Conn Coll was never really expected to make much noise in the conference, etc.  Then again, other guys have contributed lots in different ways to teams over 4 years (Nate Robertson...) and have been left off at the end.

As far as Sinnickson - I know he left the team at some point, although I don't know why and would rather not speculate - I don't think it's inconceivable that was held against him.  Not "against him" as in coaches see a guy leave and wanna "stick it" to him, but against him more as a teaching moment.

Re: other picks - is there a definite rule against FY players and all-conference selections?  It seems to me that Duncan Robinson is one of the top 5 guys in the conference, and not somewhere between 6-10.  If there IS some sort of rule about FYs and all-conference, then he should be left off entirely (because of the rule, not his performance); but if there is no rule, then I don't really get why he was 2nd team and Hart was 1st.  I know Hart can score, and this board has seen plenty of posts about whether he should be doing "more" for his team or whether he's doing what his coach needs/wants from him, but the way Duncan shot this year was really quite remarkable - not only because he's a freshman, but because he's a finesse-y, VERY thin-bodied freshman shooter. 

Wish Tom Killian had gotten a nod as well, although I totally get there were only 5 slots.  Just an aside - he averaged 25/7 against Williams.  Not bad for a valet attendant.

[GingerBaker]

To clarify my italicized point about Robinson - I mean he's a guy who puts up a lot of shots (and a lot from distance) but his percentages are sky-high..........as opposed to a big guy down low, for whom 60% isn't unimaginable.

[amh63]

Madz....My bad!...you win the bet.  buy you a beer in Salem or sometime.   My mistake was double counting the quarter final game with Colby...when Connor got 3 blocks and no steals.  I used as my starting point the handy tournament program for my numbers....starting with 20 games played for Mayer and 24 games for Green.  Thinking it was pre Tournament stats, I added the Colby numbers with those for the Trinity and Williams games. Because the program was for the semis and finals ONLY....the double counting.
As posted earlier, my use of blocks and steals, etc. was to prove my point that Connor Green was an all around fine key player for Amherst.  I may have been a little sensitive with respect to your use of averages per game....since such things as blocks and steals are not always, imo, related to number of games played....more dependent to the nature of the opponent.  Your initial post on the matter...a small part of my post....gave averages on parameters that I feel are better dealt with total numbers for the season to date. 

[amh63]

LeFrak....could not let your post wrt to a freshman making ROY and an all conference team go.  It just so happen that there is another FY player that made ROY and 2nd team all conference.  That player is on the Amherst WBB team..Ali Doswell.
We maybe seeing the first of many more firsts in years to come wrt to conference honors....considering the number of talented players that the conf. schools are now bringing in.