MBB: NESCAC

[nescac1]

Old Guy, I think that a Sabety-Palleschi (assuming the latter is 100 percent) combo could be just as good as Sharry and Locke defensively and on the boards, and even stronger offensively.  A very scary thought ... and next year, NESCAC will most definitely be a big man league.  Even with Mayer graduating, assuming the young big guys develop per expectations (usually, there is a fairly big leap forward over time for big men) there has never been a group of true back-to-the-basket fives in NESCAC like what we will see next season with Sabety, Palleschi, Swords, George, Pollack, Hudnut, Epps, Papadeas, Ogundeko and the Delpeche brothers.  Matt Daley, Zuri Pavlin, Ryan Kilcullen and Ajay Santos are all nice players as well, although not necessarily traditional big guys like the first group.  There is going to be an awesome battle down low almost every NESCAC game next season ...

On the other hand, after years of dominant point guard play, NESCAC is going to see a lot of new faces at that spot, as the top three, and five of the top seven, assist leaders are graduating. 

Booyakasha, I agree that we can't make any definitive claims about the best player ever in NESCAC.  Most of us have never seen the likes of Hancock, Sheehy and Rehnquist play, and those three were all supposed to be unbelievable players.  My only claim (and I recognize another poster made a broader claim) is that I rank Nogelo 1 and Toomey 2 in the last 20 years, and everyone else is clearly behind those two. 

Anyone catch York last night?  They put quite a hurting on Rhode Island College.  Hard to predict what will happen for the NESCAC teams this weekend considering that all three are playing basically unknown (in these parts) quantities ... it looks like, based on stats and rosters at least, that all three opposing teams are quicker, smaller, more athletic teams who want to play at a faster pace.  Should be an interesting contrast in style for Bowdoin.  Amherst thrives in a fast paced game so I think that will play to the Jeffs' advantage.  If you are counting on forcing a lot of turnovers against a Toomey-Kalema backcourt, you could be in for a long night. 

[lefrakenstein]

Williams College's Mike Nogelo is without question the top all-time men's basketball player in the NESCAC.

While there can be honest debate about the elite all-time point guards and players at other positions as near the top, no player has the following body of work:

2002 points; ave. 20 ppg (100 games played); 52% field goal percentage; 43% three-pointers; 85% foul shooter;7.6 rebounds per game; 3 assists per game. Averaged 30 points per game in a single NCAA national championship tournament (6 games) which is still an NCAA record; Williams won 100 of 114 games (97%) in Mike's four years going to back-to-back Final Fours;

...and Jostens Award winner. So, an elegant basketball player, great competitor, and an even better person.

I never had the opportunity to see Nogelo play, so I can't really weigh in with any authority on Toomey vs Nogelo, but I would say that those stats don't really paint the picture of Nogleo being "head and shoulders" ahead of Toomey

Nogelo:2002 points; ave. 20 ppg; 52% field goal percentage; 43% three-pointers; 85% foul shooter;7.6 rebounds per game; 3 assists per game.

Toomey: 1,969 pts (and counting), 17 ppg; 44% fg%; 38% 3fg%; 90% ft%; 3.7 rpg; 4.8 apg;

Each player won 87% of their games (and while toomey may have had better teammates, I'll bet he also had to face much more difficult NESCAC competition). Plus Toomey has a national championship. Call me old fashioned, but I think that should still count, regardless of the circumstances.

While Toomey is a bit behind on the stats, I think he should get a bit of a bump for running the offense.

I'm not arguing that Toomey is ahead of Nogelo, I'm just saying he's in the ballpark, at least on paper. (again, I never saw Nogelo play) "head and shoulders" above toomey seems too strong.

I also think people are selling Olson short. He was a 2-time national player of the year. His impact is simply not captured by stats. Having seen both Olson and Toomey play a lot, I honestly don't think one is clearly better than the other.

[booyakasha]

Booyakasha, I agree that we can't make any definitive claims about the best player ever in NESCAC.  Most of us have never seen the likes of Hancock, Sheehy and Rehnquist play, and those three were all supposed to be unbelievable players.  My only claim (and I recognize another poster made a broader claim) is that I rank Nogelo 1 and Toomey 2 in the last 20 years, and everyone else is clearly behind those two. 

As usual, I have absolutely no problem with your statement, nescac1. Just trying to illustrate how silly the notion that someone could be declared "without question the top all-time men's basketball player in the NESCAC". Jumpshot certainly has the right to feel this way, but to word the statement as though it is proven fact rather than speculative opinion on a qualitative subject is nonsensical.

[toad22]

You have to forgive us Williams guys when we discuss Nogelo. He was the best player at Williams since at least Harry Sheehy '73-75. He was so good that once you saw him play you never forgot him. I'm sure that there are a few other players, like Colby's Hancock, who are in the conversation. Hancock was in the very beginning of what I think of as the NESCAC era, and my be why he is sometimes overlooked.

[madzillagd]

Can't speak to the NESCAC history, but the best scorer (not overall best player) that I've ever witnessed was my freshman year at Cal Lutheran when Jeff DeLaveaga was a senior there.  It was CLU's first year in the NCAA after previously being NAIA.  DeLaveaga averaged 29.5 a game, putting up games of 47, 44, 41 etc. that year.  It was pretty insane to watch because he was constantly being double teamed to try and prevent him from getting the ball.  He started the year at forward and Dunlap moved him to guard so he could just bring it up himself rather than trying to fight to get open.  Lots of possessions where he brought it up and pulled up 8 ft behind the 3 point line and to drain a shot before the defense reacted to him.  It was like watching a DIII Jimmer Fredette.  Finished his career at CLU with 2,248 pts which doesn't sound all that much but he only played 3 years (transferred in as a soph). 

[JustAFan]

As great as Nogelo was, to my eyes Sheehy was the best ever, simply a very special player with D1 skills who would never have "slipped" to a D3 school in today's recruiting era. Jim Frew aside (perhaps my favorite Eph player of all time), you just don't see 6-5 guards in the nescac who can handle the ball, play the point, shoot lights out and go to the rim with elbows above the basket for the dunk. Harry played in a different era--19 years before the nescac was formed, when freshmen played on the freshmen team and the 3 point shot did not exist--so his statistics are the result of only 3 years of varsity play, but he was a 2 time all American in an era when New England teams received no respect nationally, was the last guy cut by an NBA team in a much smaller NBA league, and set all kinds of records post-Williams playing with Athletes in Action with lots of D1 players.  He was truly special and would dominate in today's league even though players today generally are bigger and more skilled. When the game was on the line, the entire gym (invariably a packed, cramped, sweaty bandbox in the pre-Chandler, pre-LeFrak era) knew that Williams was going to give Harry the ball and clear out and work his magic, and he rarely failed.

Changing gears, I share Lefrankenstein's view of Olson being the equal of Toomey.  Each got it done in a different way, but each was special. if anything, Olson might have had more pressure on him to shoulder more of the scoring load in addition to running the team, and he did it well.

Last but not least regarding the big men in the league next year.  It will be great if Palleschi can return to the hardcourt (and also get back on the pitching mound for the Jumbos as well) but Tufts will only be as good as their point guard next year, and without  the right leader--and distributor--at the point their big guys will end up very frustrated.

I will be curious to see if the coaches of the teams that will have some height next year will adjust their offenses to take advantage of this.  Almost all teams in the league are guard oriented and run motion offenses designed for smaller players and perimeter shots.  Everyone spreads the court and runs variations on the old weave play, and no one puts their big guys down on the blocks and runs versions of the old single or double stack play, which was the preferred offensive set in my long-ago era.  Even D1 coaches don't run this old offense because their big guys are so athletic and also want to play like wings rather than big guys.  I think it would be a perfect set for Tufts to run on occasion.  I will be curious to see if the coaches are willing to adapt their offenses to their talent, or will try to force their talent into systems and plays that they have been running for 20 years.  D3 no longer is a league of 6-5 centers and 6-3 forwards, as it was in my day, but it's my sense that many teams are still running these "small team" offenses.  Part of that is because many big men today do not want, or like, to play like big men, and consequently have not developed a lot of back to the basket skills, but part of it to me also includes the offensive sets that teams run that don't do a good job of isolating big men and getting them the ball more consistently down on the blocks.

[amh63]

Webcast settled at Amherst.  Note on the D3hoops site wrt to "tickets" for the Bowdoin game.....seems the wording is for costs at the gate...not for pay video.
What games to watch this evening...so many games of interest....like a buffet table of goodies.

It is always of interest when people recall great players at colleges and in the pros that the offensive factors leading to wins and great seasons are the measuring "sticks".  I too fall into that "hole".  Yet I remember great players in college that became legends in the pros that were great by other measuring sticks so to speak.  I think of Bill Russell of the Celtics who most remember his defensive contributions.  Then there are the guards of today who are praised for running the offense and their assists.  I think of another former Celtic....Bob Cousey.  Maybe the "bump" for Toomey suggested by Lefrak...for running the offense or the players who were great defensive players during their days in the CAC should be entered into the discussions.

[frank uible]

You whippersnappers, of course, have failed to give a mention to Tony Mauro.

[amh63]

Frank  U......who is he?   Just kidding here.....should provide some info.....was it in the 20th century?

Just a Fan....enjoyed your post.  Met the subject of your post Sheehy...nice person.  Once after an Amherst football game in Amherst...a loss to Williams,  I chatted with the "Williams AD" about the start of BB season.  He smiled at me and stated that he was unaware it had arrived. 
Do wish to clarify the point of your remarks wrt to BB facilities in the old days.  Amherst and Wesleyan were playing in the "Cages" before LeFrak I (rebuilt and enlarged after a fire...into LeFrak II).  Now before Chandler, the Williams' gym was smaller but was it even regulation size....with all those columns to pick off defenders.

[toad22]

Tony Mauro '55, led Williams to their only NCAA (d1) tournament appearance. Williams played Canisius at Madison Square Garden. Williams lost in a very competitive game. That 1955 team was inducted into the New England Basketball Hall of Fame.

[Old Guy]

Hancock was in the very beginning of what I think of as the NESCAC era, and my be why he is sometimes overlooked.

I saw Hancock play all of two times, so consider the sample size in evaluating my observation. But I remember him as a great scorer, a thick guy, strong, not tall, who could really shoot the ball, score. I think he may have been more Hart/Vadas than Toomey. A terrific offensive player, took a ton of shots. Any old Mule fans out there with first-hand accounts?

These other guys, Nogelo, Sheehy, Rehnquist were fairly big guys with complete games, right?

[nescac1]

Regarding Olson vs. Toomey, I think of Olson as someone very similar to Mike Crotty of Williams -- both were very good three point shooters, capable scorers overall, and unbelievable floor generals with innate basketball sense and elite passing ability.  I don't think it's correct to say, as someone did earlier, that Olson is a guy who could take over a game with his scoring.  He had some big scoring games from time to time and was a clutch shooter, but he wasn't someone who was a threat to put up 30 points in a typical game, something Toomey can do almost any time he puts his mind to it, while still being a great passer.  Toomey will finish his career with roughly 800 more points than Olson, which is a huge difference.  Olson was a pure point guard and a really fun guy to watch who certainly controlled the flow of action, but I think that Toomey is a more dangerous and well-rounded player overall, just because he can go on a one-more scoring run even with a ton of defensive attention devoted to him.  He is also substantially bigger, which allows him to finish better in the lane, get more rebounds, and be a better defender.  Olson was the craftier passer, but Toomey is not chopped liver in that department. 

Old Guy, the best comparison for Nogelo is Larry Bird.  He was a 6'5 guy who played both the 3 and 4 in his career and was an excellent rebounder, elite shooter from anywhere on the floor, and had a very good post-game, but his best asset was his vision and court sense.  He was a pretty good athlete (had some nice dunks, certainly) but wasn't unusually quick, but played faster than his physical abilities because he saw things happening before anyone else on the floor.  He was heavily recruited by D1 schools, I believe, before suffering a knee injury his senior year in high school, which also caused him to miss the start of his freshman year (otherwise, he would have scored even more career points).     

[frank uible]

In my judgment, Crotty's greatest strength was represented by his assist to turnover ratio.

[Old Guy]

Tony Mauro '55, led Williams to their only NCAA (d1) tournament appearance. Williams played Canisius at Madison Square Garden. Williams lost in a very competitive game. That 1955 team was inducted into the New England Basketball Hall of Fame.

Wait a minute, Frank, Toad: Tony Mauro? I just went to the Williams hoop page, archives/records. Tony Mauro isn't listed, even among the 1000 point scorers (and there are 27 of them). Did he just play that one year, '55?

Only Williams' fans may want to continue reading. I'm tripping down memory lane here (it may not be too long before I live on memory lane), but I promise I won't stay long. If you want to go back to Williams in the '50s you've got to focus on Geoff Morton '59: he was 6'7" and had an inside and outside game, scored 1231 points in three years (frosh ineligibility), with few if any post-season games to extend the season, no three point shot- and he could shoot from the perimeter. A great player, in the Nogelo/ Sheehy discussion, if you can go that far back.

He's my friend, still, and was my hoop mentor after college, and the reason I like Williams better than Amherst. In my 20s, I taught and coached for six years at University School in Cleveland. In his 30s, Geoff taught there too and was the basketball coach. This is the school Nolan Thompson attended. Big sports tradition. I coached Jayvees and was his assistant with the varsity. Basketball buddies. University School has had some good players (Tucker Kain, Wms '05, 1040 points, also went there).

Geoff and I attended to the first ever Cleveland Cavaliers basketball game in the old Cleveland Arena, Bill Fitch coaching. The Cavs trained in our gym - Austin Carr, Bingo Smith, Jim Chones. We went to a lotta games together. He took me to the coaching clinic in Cleveland where I heard Al Maguire utter my favorite line ever about sports: "the best thing in sports is winning; the second best thing is sports is losing." My kids roll their eyes when I say it now, so familiar is it. If you're in the Game, you risk losing. Get in the Game!

Geoff Morton. Look it up. He lives now half the year in Cleveland, half the year in Tucson and attends all the Arizona Wildcats games. Knows hoop.

[AmherstStudent05]

I am loving this Olson-Toomey discussion! Like walzy, I could probably spend hours discussing this wonderful topic! But just a few thoughts for now.

I never thought I would see an Amherst player rival what Olson did for our program, but Toomey has simply been sensational this year.  As I said in an earlier post a while back, he has now combined the premier scoring ability he has basically always had with Olson's uncanny court sense and game management skills.

As lefrakenstein has mentioned though, Olson has always been a player whose value could not be captured by a box score.  I think nescac1's comparison to Crotty is a very fair one (though, like walzy, I am convinced that Olson is clearly better!), particularly the part about them being "unbelievable floor generals with innate basketball sense and elite passing ability."  Olson was simply fantastic at consistently managing the game in Amherst's favor.

nescac1 is also generally correct in describing Olson's offensive game.  Olson was not a volume scorer.  Unlike Toomey, who has led Amherst in scoring the past three seasons, Olson never led the Jeffs in scoring over the course of a season.  But Olson was definitely capable of turning in a big number when we needed it, and, as early as 2006 (his sophomore year), Olson was definitely our go-to guy when we needed that clutch hoop (even with the great John Bedford on the floor).

nescac1, I did catch the York game last night.  As advertised, York is largely a two-man band, although, last night, it was St. John (who I assume is the coach's son) playing Batman to Woods's Robin when those roles have seemingly been reversed.  Woods struggled with his outside shot a bit last night, while St. John could't miss and both of them attack the rim hard.  Very impressive duo indeed.  Not sure they were running the most complex half court sets, but then again, they didn't really need to as they got so many points in transition.

York played a half court trap for as long as the game was competitive.  It was a thing to watch.  RIC couldn't figure it out at all.  The Anchormen finished the game with 22 turnovers and were stuck on 2 points -- yes 2! -- for the first 8-9 minutes of the game.  Unfortunately, Coach Walsh's team could never get the game back on track.  (In fairness to Coach Walsh, he has recently been playing without two of his better players, Sanders and Cilley).

As has been mentioned, York is small, but they are athletic and quick.  Should be a fun contrast of styles tomorrow.  I am looking forward to it.

Unfortunately, it looks as though I will miss all the D3hoops action tonight.  I am heading up to Columbia to see Joey Kizel's high school teammate, Alex Rosenberg, take on Penn.  I know I am biased, but I find Ivy basketball much less entertaining than nescac ball -- generally too much of a slugfest for my tastes.  (Interesting note about Rosenberg.  Coach Maker recruited him hard for Williams and Williams was apparently the best offer Alex had during his senior year.  Fortunately, Alex decided to take a PG year so he could realize his ambitions of playing D1 ball.  I like to think it worked out for all of us -- certainly fans of Columbia and Amherst.  A recruiting class of Rosenberg, Mayer, and Epley would have been really nasty!)