MBB: NESCAC

[Pat Coleman]

Pat, I agree with and appreciate the irony in your response about CBS Sports!

I noticed that the women's championship game will be available online. So I would assume that the powers that be governing the NCAA DIII tournament are not the ones imposing the ban on online broadcast of tonight's men's game, and assume instead that the ban is coming from CBS. Do you know if the ban is a condition of CBS's TV package for the NCAA D1 tournament and they've forced the NCAA to apply the ban at all levels?  Makes me wonder if the NCAA DIII folks could reverse this going forward.  It does the NCAA no good to have this game unavailable unless you have a cable package that includes CBS Sports, especially since I doubt that little, if any, of the financial rewards from the CBS contract find their way down the NCAA ladder to the DIII level. Except at the D1 level, broadcast sports packages are becoming a relic and no longer a benefit to any of the schools involved given the advent of all of the different direct online broadcast media available to schools. The NCAA DIII men's tournament no longer needs access to a national broadcast system and the exclusivity conditions that are part and parcel of that access hurt rather than help the game, as evidenced by tonight's game; DIII sports are doing just fine, thank you, relying on the new technologies and broadcast venues available to all schools (and websites like yours!), which have created a greater buzz and more interest than the national system ever did.  Let's hope the DIII leaders in the NCAA can undo this approach in future years.

I agree with just about everything you've said here and I hope to dig into this this summer to find out more. Indeed, this is CBS' decision to black out online video streaming, but it was the NCAA that really pushed for CBS to come in for this game last year. I don't believe the NCAA knew this would be the result.

[Pat Coleman]

nescac1, you ask a very good question.  I was perplexed, watching the LJ starters looking totally gassed and Hixon not even looking down the bench .

I don't believe they were "gassed" (and I didn't even watch the game!) They're well-conditioned young athletes, but that's not why I have no problem with Hixon's substitution strategy.

With the normal full complement of time-outs, plus a media timeout every four minutes, players are getting a breather, like it or not, all the damn time. Hixon had eight additional timeouts! (Correct me, Dave or Pat, if I have any of this wrong.).

This is true but just to clarify, that's the same number that were in every other NCAA Tournament game. On top of the media breaks, they get four 30's and a full ... I believe ... with one that is use-it-or-lose-it in the first half. Then there's details around when a 30 stretches into a full and all sorts of stuff.. Dave knows for sure.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Pat, I agree with and appreciate the irony in your response about CBS Sports!

I noticed that the women's championship game will be available online. So I would assume that the powers that be governing the NCAA DIII tournament are not the ones imposing the ban on online broadcast of tonight's men's game, and assume instead that the ban is coming from CBS. Do you know if the ban is a condition of CBS's TV package for the NCAA D1 tournament and they've forced the NCAA to apply the ban at all levels?  Makes me wonder if the NCAA DIII folks could reverse this going forward.  It does the NCAA no good to have this game unavailable unless you have a cable package that includes CBS Sports, especially since I doubt that little, if any, of the financial rewards from the CBS contract find their way down the NCAA ladder to the DIII level. Except at the D1 level, broadcast sports packages are becoming a relic and no longer a benefit to any of the schools involved given the advent of all of the different direct online broadcast media available to schools. The NCAA DIII men's tournament no longer needs access to a national broadcast system and the exclusivity conditions that are part and parcel of that access hurt rather than help the game, as evidenced by tonight's game; DIII sports are doing just fine, thank you, relying on the new technologies and broadcast venues available to all schools (and websites like yours!), which have created a greater buzz and more interest than the national system ever did.  Let's hope the DIII leaders in the NCAA can undo this approach in future years.

I agree with just about everything you've said here and I hope to dig into this this summer to find out more. Indeed, this is CBS' decision to black out online video streaming, but it was the NCAA that really pushed for CBS to come in for this game last year. I don't believe the NCAA knew this would be the result.

In the past CBS has run replays of the d2 championship (and way, way back the d3 championship as well) on the Saturday morning of Final Four weekend.  They might be saving it?  I'm not sure why that would prevent them from live streaming it in the first place.

[madzillagd]

-- And of course a national championship along with other final four and tournament appearances. And the nat'l championship required going through Aaron Walton-Moss and the CCIW—though clearly you judge the CCIW inferior to the WIAC. (See what I did there? TROLLING. Maybe we can we incite some CCIW-on-WIAC crime.)

This is an interesting one when you look at these two teams.  Definitely shows how it helps to get that NESCAC championship and easier route. 

Senior class four year record in tournament:  Amherst 12-3, Williams 12-3  (Williams of course only made it 3 of the 4 years)
Tournament record against Top 25 teams (Week 13 ranking prior to tournament):  Amherst 2-3, Williams 7-3
Tournament record against unranked teams: Amherst: 10-0, Williams 5-0

2014: Amherst: 3-1  0-1 vs ranked (Lost to #9 Williams)
2013: Amherst: 5-0  1-0 vs ranked (Beat #3 NCC)
2012: Amherst: 1-1  0-1 vs ranked (Lost to #9 F&M)
2011: Amherst: 3-1  1-1 vs ranked (Beat #14 WPI, Lost to #4 Williams)

2014: Williams: 5-1  3-1 vs ranked (Beat #13 AMC, Beat #17 MW, Beat #7 Amherst, Lost to #3 UW-WW)
2013: Williams: 3-1  2-1 vs ranked (Beat #9 Catholic, Beat #25 VW, Lost to #1 UST)
2012:
2011: Williams: 4-1  2-1 vs ranked (Beat #10, Beat #9 Amherst, Lost to #5 Wooster)

You can only play the schedule they give you and Amherst took advantage of that last year and beat the only Top 25 team they played (NCC) to go on to win the championship.  Williams couldn't get over the hump in conference play and as a result had to beat a lot more Top 25 teams as a result.  Something to show guys how important it is to win those conference games because it does make a difference in how difficult their tournament run will be. 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

nescac1, you ask a very good question.  I was perplexed, watching the LJ starters looking totally gassed and Hixon not even looking down the bench .

I don't believe they were "gassed" (and I didn't even watch the game!) They're well-conditioned young athletes, but that's not why I have no problem with Hixon's substitution strategy.

With the normal full complement of time-outs, plus a media timeout every four minutes, players are getting a breather, like it or not, all the damn time. Hixon had eight additional timeouts! (Correct me, Dave or Pat, if I have any of this wrong.).

This is true but just to clarify, that's the same number that were in every other NCAA Tournament game. On top of the media breaks, they get four 30's and a full ... I believe ... with one that is use-it-or-lose-it in the first half. Then there's details around when a 30 stretches into a full and all sorts of stuff.. Dave knows for sure.

As in every game in the NCAA tournament, there are media timeouts after the 16, 12, 8, and 4 minute marks of each period... then each team has five total timeouts: 4 30's and 1 full with one 30 second time out having to be used in the first half or you lose it (thus why last minute timeouts tend to be called in the first half... and the first timeout called by either team in the first half is made a full timeout (they don't lose the full timeout) and is thus a media timeout as well - making really for five media-length timeouts in the second half.

As for what CBS chose to do: I know that the NCAA and the basketball committee pushed for the game to be video streamed as well and all they got in return was NCAA.com's version of a radio stream (they used their guys from the other three games). CBS put the game on a 72-hour blackout online... so in roughly 24 hours it should be available to watch online.

I know that the NCAA and the basketball committee (along with Salem) are happy CBS has decided to go back to picking up this game, but I also know they are not happy that the game is frozen out from many who want to see it. CBS Sports claims to be in 55 million homes... but to quote someone, they are "available" in 55 million homes... just not actually available to watch (different sports tiers) in 55 million homes.

[nescac1]

AncientSonOfHixon, while you haven't been an offender at all in either regard (nor has AmherstStudent05, and a few others), understand that Williams fans/posters have had to endure three years of gloating and smack-talking on and offline from certain members of the Amherst contingent/fan base.  Wasn't it just last week we were told how Duncan Robinson is overrated? 

So I think we Ephs are entitled to bask in the glow of victory (in particular, the nature and setting of that victory) for at least a FEW days.  I'm not saying that one win makes up for the last three years, although I do think the last two NCAA wins over Amherst count for quite a bit more than any of the losses in between those wins -- just like the last three years don't make up for the entire history of the Williams-Amherst rivalry, where Williams has the clear edge . 

I'm just saying, THIS week, it's Williams' turn to be on top.  And it's also fun to know that Toomey is gone, while Robinson is just getting warmed up.  When folks suggest that Amherst's loss of one half of a center platoon (who, last I checked, also missed the last Amherst-Williams game, in which George did just fine) is what accounted for the 29-point loss to Williams, or worse yet, join this board for seemingly the sole purpose of trying to delegitimize the victory because Williams didn't win the national title the following day, well, I think my response was actually fairly muted ...

Regarding the class of 2014, I absolutely agree that the Amherst class of 2014 has an amazing overall resume.  I was just saying that Williams 2014 was pretty darn impressive as well.  But yeah, winning a title, even if they had somewhat better fortune in terms of final opponent, along with the sheer number of victories over Williams certainly gives Amherst 2014 the head-to-head edge. 

I would, however, put Williams 2004 right there with Amherst 2014 -- tourney apperances their final three season, two all-Americans, a huge part of an NCAA-record home winning streak (which ended early in 2005), a national title, a second place finish by two points to one of the elite D3 squads of recent memory, a win on the road vs. D1 Holy Cross, two NESCAC title game wins over Amherst, a total of THREE losses in their final two years, and best of all, wins over Amherst in the Elite 8 and Final Four in back-to-back years.  I'd say Amherst 2014 vs. Williams 2004 is a true toss-up in terms of overall achievement, but in my TOTALLY unbiased opinion, I give the slight edge to Williams 2004, just because of the stark difference in how their careers ended. 

And finally, yes, I will certainly say as I've said before that WIAC is better than CCIW (or, for that matter, NESCAC).  I think that five national titles for the conference in the past eleven years speaks for itself, and when you look further back to the Plattesville era of dominance, it's even more impressive ... NESCAC's record of three national titles, and four second place finishes, over the last 12 years isn't too shabby, either, of course!

[nescac1]

Great USA Today article on the Final Four:

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/03/division-3-final-four-ncaa-basketball-salem-wisconsin-whitewater-williams/

[Old Guy]

"As in every game in the NCAA tournament, there are media timeouts after the 16, 12, 8, and 4 minute marks of each period... then each team has five total timeouts: 4 30's and 1 full with one 30 second time out having to be used in the first half or you lose it (thus why last minute timeouts tend to be called in the first half... and the first timeout called by either team in the first half is made a full timeout (they don't lose the full timeout) and is thus a media timeout as well - making really for five media-length timeouts in the second half."
[/quote]

Like I said: changes the game.

[jayhawk]

To be clear I am not lost in this Williams Amherst stuff. 
I have relatives in my family that went to Williams

Nor was I trying to say that because Pollack was absent that  was an excuse for the fine play of Williams.
I was very careful in what I say and prefaced my remarks.
I actually try to not say negative comments about anyone in these posts
Right I did say that if Pollack was present that would have helped - and I said that Alex Levine had played some capable minutes in the NESCAC final  but could not play also
In the NESCAC tournament final Nabatoff played one  minute !!!!
In the first half of the NCAA semifinals  I believe George had to split time with Nabatoff and actually Nabatoff played more minutes that George
With all due respect if you have to use a freshman who had played very little and is your fourth string center in a semi-final championship that hurts. But I never said that is why Williams won nor as an excuse just responding to your query about substitution


Time to for me to move on

[AncientSonOfHixon]

. . . So I think we Ephs are entitled to bask in the glow of victory (in particular, the nature and setting of that victory) for at least a FEW days. 

Yeah, you're right, n1. Can't begrudge you some basking.
Take the whole week. 

I would, however, put Williams 2004 right there with Amherst 2014 -- tourney apperances their final three season, two all-Americans, a huge part of an NCAA-record home winning streak (which ended early in 2005), a national title, a second place finish by two points to one of the elite D3 squads of recent memory, a win on the road vs. D1 Holy Cross, two NESCAC title game wins over Amherst, a total of THREE losses in their final two years, and best of all, wins over Amherst in the Elite 8 and Final Four in back-to-back years.  I'd say Amherst 2014 vs. Williams 2004 is a true toss-up in terms of overall achievement, but in my TOTALLY unbiased opinion, I give the slight edge to Williams 2004, just because of the stark difference in how their careers ended. 

Well played, n1. But I see your Williams Class of '04 and raise you an Amherst Class of '08 (the Olson years, which I've been scolded off-board for overlooking). Overall 111-12 (compared to Williams '04's 104-15); two NESCAC titles; four NCAA tourney appearances, one to Sweet 16, three to Final Four, two to national final; one national championship. Oh, and an 8-1 record against the Ephs.

. . . I bet the non-Williams/Amherst posters LOVE this stuff.

[toad22]

The Amherst players were pretty gassed near the end of the game. Playing catch-up is exhausting. Trying to catch up always seemed to me, as a player, as about 5 times as tough as playing with a lead.

[NothingButNESCAC]

Our big picture look at what this weekend meant and a goodbye to the class of 2014. In the article we draw a couple of analogies. The first compares Williams and Amherst to rival houses in medieval times and the other to Florida and Alabama in football. Hope you enjoy.
http://nothingbutnescac.wordpress.com/2014/03/24/the-king-is-dead-long-live-the-king/

[gordonmann]

. . . I bet the non-Williams/Amherst posters LOVE this stuff.

Other than a couple active contributors from Middlebury and outsiders who follow the conversations in several rooms, there haven't been many consistent non-Amherst/Williams posters in this room in years.

[grabtherim]

I really enjoy the back and forth between the LJ and Eph posters.  Excellent rivalry and the fight for bragging rights is very funny. Interesting how many of them see the world beginning and ending at Amherst and Williams, all the rest of us being interlopers. So be it, no big deal. That said, if someone else wins the league next year or heaven forbid a championship we would be well advised to remove their belts and shoelaces and put them on a 24 hour watch

. . . I bet the non-Williams/Amherst posters LOVE this stuff.

Other than a couple active contributors from Middlebury and outsiders who follow the conversations in several rooms, there haven't been many consistent non-Amherst/Williams posters in this room in years.

[nescac1]

Nah, not at all.  I actually look forward to next year when NESCAC will, for the first time in ages, be WIDE open.  I could see any of seven teams -- Williams, Amherst, Midd, Colby, Tufts, Trinity, Bowdoin -- with a legit shot of winning the NESCAC title, and even Wesleyan, Hamilton, or Bates have enough talent to surprise some teams.  Williams will probably be the slight favorite going in with the Robinson/Wohl/Rooke-Ley/Greenman core returning, but Mayer did SO much for the Ephs down the stretch and no one can replace what he brought on both ends.  Amherst loses a ton and doesn't have a strong senior class to rely on, for the first time seemingly in eons.  Midd and Bowdoin lose strong senior classes, too, so the top four teams in NESCAC from this year could all struggle at times next year, and all will have major question marks heading into the season.   Meanwhile Colby, Tufts, and Trinity each defeated, or at least came very close to doing so, the top teams last year, and all look like they should be MUCH improved on paper.  Wesleyan also brings everyone back and will be a sleeper.  It's going to be a battle every game in conference play, and the days of two or three teams steamrolling everyone else are long gone.