MBB: NESCAC

[nescac1]

Good question re: the Mount Rushmore, Amherst Student.  I guess the first question is how you define the "modern NESCAC era."  For me, that should be defined as when NESCAC teams were first allowed into the NCAA tournament, which was, I believe, in 1994 (possibly 1993).  This also coincides perfectly with when I first began following NESCAC basketball, but it does seem to be the right starting point for the modern NESCAC era.  So some guys who would clearly be top candidates, like Rehnquist, Sheehy, and Hancock, will miss the cut.  But then again, most of us never saw those guys play, and they never had a chance to test their mettle in the NCAA tourney. 

Given that criteria, choice one is clear to me: Mike Nogelo.  I think there were good arguments back and forth earlier on the board for Toomey vs. Nogelo, but I also think Toomey's final game gives a clear edge to Nogelo. Now, you could say it's unfair to do so based on one game, but the best argument for Toomey before this year's Final Four was "he won a national title, and Nogelo didn't."  The thing was, Toomey just had a LOT more talent around him when winning that title.  Both of Nogelo's two Final Four teams were similar to Toomey's team THIS year -- some very good supporting players, but clearly one star head and shoulders above the rest.  But Nogelo showed that when he is the overwhelming focus of a defense, he still couldn't be stopped.  In the semifinal, against an unbeatable Wisconsin Plattesville team coached by Bo Ryan (who I think we all know can coach some defense), Nogelo scored 18.  Toomey got 3 vs. Williams, a team that was hardly a defensive juggernaut.  Nogelo set the all-time record in that tourney for most points scored in a D3 NCAA tourney, a record that may still stand (I'm not sure).  Combined with Nogelo's overall career statistical superiority, I think the dramatically different ways in which the careers  ended is the tie-breaker that gives the edge to Nogelo for best player of the modern NESCAC era. 

So, I'd say 1. Nogelo, 2. Toomey.  I have a strong feeling Duncan Robinson will join them one day, but obviously he has a long way to go.  I'd give Andrew Olson the third spot, and Michael Mayer the fourth.  As you note, it's hard to pick Coffin vs. Crotty or Whittington vs. Schultz vs. Wang, and if it is unclear if you were alpha dog on your own team, I don't think you can qualify.  Wang and Zieja both would have been good candidates if injuries hadn't ruined their respective senior years, it's tough when what should be your best year is so compromised by injury.  I think both guys were as talented as anyone other than Nogelo/Toomey when healthy. 

Tyler Rhoten vs. Mayer for the fourth spot is a very close call, Rhoten was better as a frosh and sophomore than Mayer, but Mayer was better as a junior and senior, and he did a lot more overall than Rhoten, who was primarily a scorer.  I posted on another board Mayer's stat line over his last 10 NCAA games:  21.3 ppg, 10.5 rpb, 3.3 apg, .8 spg, 2.2 bpg, 61 percent from the field.  That has to be the best overall statistical NCAA performance over an extended stretch of games of any NESCAC player, ever, and elevating your game is the biggest spots (and vs. the best competition -- he faced three other all-American centers, plus two other elite shot blockers, in those ten games) is a sign of true greatness.  Other D3 observers are placing Mayer in the top 5-6 centers in the entire Salem era, which is saying something considering some of the guys we are talking about.  Three other guys who have strong arguments for that fourth spot are Ryan Sharry, Mike Schantz, who was a dominant low post presence for Hamilton teams that, unfortunately, didn't give him a lot of help, and Kareem Tatum -- remember when Conn College was awesome?  Seems like decades ago -- and actually, it just about is!     Honestly, it is very, VERY close between Mayer/Rhoten/Sharry/Schantz/Tatum, and I'm guessing that fans of their respective teams would favor their own guy. 

My Amherst top four by the way would be Toomey, Olson, Jamal Wilson, and Zieja, in that order, with John Bedford vs. Zieja a close call for the fifth spot.  For Williams, it's Nogelo, Mayer, Coffin, Crotty.  Schultz was consistently great but could be contained by elite defenders, Whittington at his best was as good as anyone but that best was for too short a period to qualify, and Wang as noted was just too compromised by injury.  Sorry, Mike Crotty, but your protege Duncan Robinson will in all likelihood soon be knocking you off the Eph mountaintop. 

[amh63]

AmhStud05.....you are a bb fan of your era! .  Enjoyed your bold original assertions of players to monumental levels. 
I too thought actor DDL was great in the play like Abe role...but liked DDL  in his Hawkeye role running around the hills of Magicman's New York State...or was it in the Green Mountains of VT?
I must admit that your role for Coach Hixon has stumped me.  Guess it is your way of raising the level or really changing the direction of the posts here .
In any case, thanks for bringing up players' names that I have not heard or thought about for years....John Bedford in particular.  John Bedford was from the same NJ hometown that sent a great player to Trinity.  The two players went to different HS and battled each other for 4 years on the hardwood.  Remember an alum friend thinking about the possibility of both players attending Amherst as he "scouted" them.  It was not to be though...was the Trinity player Tyler R?

[AmherstStudent05]

Great stuff, nescac1.  Sorry for not defining "modern NESCAC era." I have defined it before and just got lazy.  For me, it is the 2000-01 season when the NESCAC Tournament was introduced.  That season also represents the starting point of the archives on nescac.com.  Perhaps most importantly, it coincides almost perfectly with when I started following NESCAC ball.

Of course, had I been using your timeframe, Nogelo would be a no-brainer I am sure (I never saw him play or followed him, so tough for me to judge but I have a hard time believing he was better than Toomey; but, as I say, not for me to decide).

As I hope you know, I have long been a (begrudging) Mayer fan, but I just can't place him over Rhoten -- and I have a hard time placing him over Coffin as well.  Maybe this has something to do with the fact that Coffin and Rhoten were more or less contemporaries of mine and so I have a more vivid recollection of the trouble they consistently caused my Jeffs.  Rhoten was simply a scoring machine in the blocks.  Also, I recall Rhoten being a nice rebounder and defender as well (though he certainly didn't have Mayer's perimeter game).

Coffin too is an interesting case.  Perhaps even partway through his JUNIOR year I would not have even described him as Williams' best big man (DeMuth), so his career numbers -- which I do not have off hand -- might not be great.  But, boy, was he an absolute terror that last year and a half (though he too had a slightly disappointing final weekend in Salem -- though a phenomenal one the year before).

If I had to think of the four Williams players in my time who struck the most fear in my heart as an Amherst fan, I would probably go with Coffin, Schultz, Whittington and Wang (when healthy).  Though even this measure might not be best.  For instance, it almost certainly shortchanges Crotty.  I am not sure what Crotty's career numbers were against Amherst -- they may well be better than I remember and I remember them as being fair -- but while Mike might not have been as "dangerous" or "intimidating" as a Coffin or a Whittington or a Mayer, he was a fantastic floor general who led his team well and could be counted on in the clutch.

[nescac1]

Coffin vs. Mayer, I'd say Mayer > Coffin as a sophomore (clearly), Mayer > Coffin as a junior (close call), Coffin > Mayer as a senior EXCEPT for in NCAA tourney when Mayer was SLIGHTLY > Coffin, so Coffin probably gets the edge overall.  Since Mayer was Williams' top player when he was a sophomore, and Coffin didn't really emerge until the second half of his junior year, I think Mayer's aggregate body of work is stronger.  It's no doubt a close call as Coffin posted some monster games in big situations. 

As for Rhoten, my memory of him is a bit hazy and I didn't see him play very much, but I kind of always thought of him as a Carmelo Anthony type of player -- someone who could score it at will, great mid-range shooter, but also was a bit of a ball-stopper who never seemed to really elevate the play of those around him, some of whom were quite talented players.  The other players on my Mount Rushmore all did that to a HUGE degree, certainly Toomey, Olson, and Nogelo.  And that to me is Mayer's biggest advantage over him -- his passing and ball-handling created a lot of opportunities for those around him.  I also feel like Mayer was a bigger presence on the defensive end, although both players were better on O than D. 

Sorry you never saw Jamal Wilson play, by the way.  As an Eph fan, he was sort of like you describe Coffin -- when he had it going, he was absolutely terrifying, tall for a guard, very athletic, and could really shoot from deep.  I think he is a guy who is overall a bit underrated in Lord Jeff lore, in part because he didn't play (through no fault of his own) on any Final Four teams (although he did carry the Jeffs to the Elite 8 as a senior).  I thought he was the most talented Amherst player I saw until Olson came along. 

[jumpshot]

Here's some excellent reading for the "off-season:

http://magazine.williams.edu/2014/spring/report/

[madzillagd]

Midd - My 8 yr old won her indoor soccer game this week 5-4. 10 seconds left, the pack is on the left side of the goal, ball squirts out to the right side of the goal - easy tap in for the opposing team from 5 ft but my daughter comes out of nowhere beating the opponent to the ball and clears it to preserve the victory. Crowd goes wild.  Son's t-ball game rained out this week.  Me now checking the board for the first time in a couple days as I wait for the family to wake up in our hotel room in Tahoe so they can go skiing today.

Life goes on, not much happening in the basketball world other than watching coaching moves. Nephew's former teammates got some new coaches at Wazzu and Montana State. Both changes were overdue and it will be interesting to see how it impacts their JR/SR years.

[amh63]

Awaiting the Final Four games, Women and men's....and if there is any growing concerns wrt to the Northwestern players unionization on the NCAA approach to the Div1 sports.  Actually have an classmate who wants to change the NCAA...a Don Q. Windmill adventure.  Actually he is a frat brother with too much time and funds available
Middhoops..the Wildcats' HBC, Calipari has a book out...brief review in the WSJ.  Defends his approach to recruiting and wants some changes to Div1 MBB.  Maybe a good read for you...check it out from your local public library.
Not much news on the recruiting front...maybe by the end of the month.  May 1 is the decision day for admitted students.   Could speculate the impact of Trinity's new Prez...coming in this summer... On Trinity's sports.  She is the first Woman prez at Trinity...coming from Tuft's undergrad's college.
Any comment on the wild situation up at Dartmouth...student takeover of admin offices...?  Maybe Sheely, the AD will want to look at the opening for the TOP spot at Middlebury

[middhoops]

If you haven't already found this link, it appears to be the definitive recruiting page for NESCAC info.

http://www.d3bballrecruits.com/p/nescac.html

[Vandy74]

Do I dare mention the Final Four games?  I'm a hoops junkie; of course.
Kentucky is crazy, beautiful girl.
When they're good    ...........

It's a bit of a reach but the Championship game does have a NESCAC connection.  UConn vs John Calipari (UMass HC '88-'96) two schools from the old Yankee Conference, which granted, stopped sponsoring basketball in 1975.  Middlebury HC Jeff Brown UVM '82, another Yankee Conference school.  OK, it's a huge reach, but it's a slow news day.   

[amh63]

Middhoops....stayed up too late watching the men's games.  UConn surprised me.  Calhoun seems in better health these days....he has lost any credit with me after tarnishing UConn's reputation with his ways....announcers points to his titles and never about the number of probations his teams/ program have been put on.   Sorry...a sore point with me on a program that I have been following since those Yankee Conference days.
The announcers in the second game did mention the Bo Ryan days in the D3 basketball.  Did not realize he had won 4 titles as a D3 coach.
Yes, Vandy...do remember Calipari's days at UMass.  Never bumped into him when taking my sons to meals with roommates...even when going to a favorite Italian establishment of Calipari.  He left town when his program was being investigated by the NCAA...Cambry period.
Will be watching the women's final 4 today....strange to see two ACC teams battle...UMD last year in the ACC...ND's first year. 

[middhoops]

Vandy, the old Yankee Conference was a relic in today's television fueled college sports scene.
UConn........superstars bball
UMass........really good hoops
URI...........sorta holding their own hoops
Maine......done well in hockey and lower level D1 football
UNH ........great hockey and ok football
UVM......good hockey, dropped football, very good bottom level D1 hoops

All I know is that nothing is worse than a round trip to Orono (F*#@%ng) Maine on a weekend when you are 19 years old.  Amherst was the very best of the Yankee Conference towns.

[Vandy74]

Vandy, the old Yankee Conference was a relic in today's television fueled college sports scene.
UConn........superstars bball
UMass........really good hoops
URI...........sorta holding their own hoops
Maine......done well in hockey and lower level D1 football
UNH ........great hockey and ok football
UVM......good hockey, dropped football, very good bottom level D1 hoops

All I know is that nothing is worse than a round trip to Orono (F*#@%ng) Maine on a weekend when you are 19 years old.  Amherst was the very best of the Yankee Conference towns.

Maine has had some success on the diamond as well.

[madzillagd]

Here's your connection to the championship game...  http://m.espn.go.com/ncb/story?storyId=10739321&src=desktop

Mike Maker's brother Wyatt was on the Villanova team.

[amh63]

Guys....if you can, there is a very funny...and bias... Article in the WSJ this morning by J. Gay....a columnist about the Wisconsin game with Kentucky.  Mr. Gay is a Badger alum and announces that he is going to be bias in his reporting...quite refreshing and funny...especially about old fans gathering in a bar to cheer their school.  Reminds me of my antics a little.

Middhoops...when you were going to Yankee conference games, I an older grad student was followng your steps a bit.  Remember being on the "stage" area in the URI gym watching an UCONN vs. URI game with fellow crazy grad students wearing "Beatle" wigs. One fellow almost caused a riot after the game taunting the Ram fans before we got him out of Kingston...is it really a town?

Madz...remember that "upset" ...watched it on a business trip to the Bay Area...how time flies.  At least that school on the Mainline has keep up it's BB standards.

[Old Guy]

Normally, I take the "off-season" off. I don't play "who's coming," next year's frosh. I realize that sounds snotty, but I spent lots of years at Midd unconditionally supporting mediocre teams (I readily admit I have enjoyed immensely the last 6-8 years), but I sometimes need to remind myself that these really are student-athletes and different recruiting and admissions conventions apply from our big-time cousins. I'll get into it soon enough. I do read the hoop admission information that gets posted here, by others. I like the Ryan Sharrys and Nolan Thompsons that show up largely unheralded and grow in ability (and sometimes physically) and excite us with their play.

Once they get here in the fall, I genuinely enjoy talking to whomever I know on the team about the "new guys." A few years back, I stopped a group of players on campus and asked the obvious question, and they said "Joey," a guard, was a good player and shining in pre-season pick-up. I asked his last name - they had no idea (probably would have said Kizzle). They don't read the clippings. They just play and go to school.

I have taken March Madness off this year too. I went to Atlanta last year. I think I exhausted myself with the NESCAC season and the challenges it posed from this distance. I think if I could have watched the games, the so-called Big Dance, I'd probably have gotten into it.

I'm not at all a fan of John Calipari, snake-oil salesman, especially since his UMass "refuse to lose" teams, that officially have no wins now (he last couple of years anyway) and no tournament appearances either, though his bio doesn't say that. The big-time college game doesn't look much like college from my perspective, even the cleanest programs. One and done - gimme a break. Baseball does it right, or better anyway: if you don't to go to college - you can sign right out of high school, but if you don't sign, you wait three years. A student who gets within one year of graduating is more likely, certainly, to get his degree if the pro game doesn't work out.

Midd Hoops: I didn't mind the trips to Orono: of course, I lived in Maine. In college, I remember heading up to Burlington to watch UConn demolish UVM, in the Toby Kimball, Wes Bialosuknia, Tom Penders era. I thought the Yankee Conference was a great idea: neat, clean, the New England state universities. Growing up in a Bates family, the games with the Black Bears were always big events, though usually one-sided losses. Even so, I loved going to Orono with my dad and his adult friends. The Maine State Series was fun. Likewise in Vermont (Midd, Norwich, St. Mike's, UVM). UVM dropped us in football my junior year - and then dropped football (quiz: what's the only other state whose flagship public university doesn't have a football team?). I can understand dropping football, but baseball? Seems un-American.

Midd Hoops II, I hope this post-hoop depression is mild and soon over. See you at 2 Bros in July for a rehash of this season and a preview of next. In baseball, the off-season is the "hot-stove league" in the winter. What is it in basketball: the "sun-block league"? Either way, usually involves a cold one or two.