MBB: NESCAC

[jayhawk]

I need to get back to day job but I thought I  would comment about Amherst's transfers.
I believe that actually Amherst tried to recruit some of these players while they were in high school.
They decided to follow a different path and then changed their minds.

Also what happens is that a college coach is respected and known by other high school and college coaches who has a  player either graduating from high school or wants to transfer from that college and recommends those players to a coach such as David Hixon at Amherst. This is similar what was reported about some of the recruits who ended up at Williams.  Also Kilcullen transferfed from BC to Williams

I am not sure why anyone would point  a finger at Amherst's Coach- All schools try and hope to do this. For example Tufts also got a transfer from the Naval Academy last year.   

At this point I will go back to my day job and hopefully not post till maybe next year. I just wanted to complete the Amherst Class for those are curious

[hoya73]

Middhoops and NESCAC (and perhaps Charles as well):  Wow!  Apparently there are some disappointed fans who have been waiting for a while to beat up on Amherst.  These two young men, by all accounts academically qualified and in at least one case I know of, were interested in Amherst coming out of High School, have decided to transfer there.  Think out of it this way--  huge sophomore class, small freshman class.  I don't know why there is any reason to insinuate that there is something untoward here, and only you can decide if that is what you were insinuating. 

[nescac1]

It's not a reflection on these individual players.  I'm sure they could have been admitted out of high school.  But if you think that most other NESCAC coaches can add two D1 transfers to an already huge seven man recruiting class, you think wrong.  I'm sure many of his colleagues would love to have the ability to bring in what is now a nine man recruiting class.  It's definitely an advantage.  But can't blame Hixon for making good use of it and recruiting, counting George, three D1 level guys in one year, plus a slew of other high level hoops recruits. 

[nescac1]

By way of comparison, Maker brought in eight recruits in three YEARS.  And Maker works really, really hard to find guys all over the country.  Again, it's not about any one particular player -- it's about the flexibility to bring in so many. 

[jayhawk]

Many of this year's freshman class at Amherst were regular decision students, not typical early decision acceptances when many if not most recruits are accepted by NESCAC schools, and were accepted at other high quality NESCAC schools . Some of them got into IVY league schools without necessarily being recruited.  So these students selected Amherst over other fine schools because it fit their needs. Last year having won the National Championship may have provided some of the allure.

I feel that sometimes we underestimate of the allure of going to specific NESCAC schools over the goal of selecting a school by available playing time.   The camaradarie of being on a basketball team or other sports teams in the NESCAC at a small school is remarkable

[GoWesYoungMan]

Were these kids recruited? Or did they "recruit" Amherst? We will probably never know but it is entirely possible that these players contacted Hixon. I don't feel compelled to deny them access to a great NESCAC experience particularly since they may not have even been aware of that option when they were playing hs ball. While many NESCAC players are very familiar with the league through NE prep leagues, kids from the hinterlands (AZ) might not even be aware of the Amherst option, especially when they are offered an opportunity to walk on for the home state Wildcats. League competition is one issue . The other factor is competition within the team. Kids have waited for their opportunity but now may be sitting while transfers to D3 play immediately.

[GingerBaker]

Has anyone considered the hazy future of Ben Pollack's knee?  Is he OK?  I personally wonder if Hixon is worried about having anyone behind David George when he hits that second foul or needs a breather.  He publicly commented at the end of last season about his inability to properly bring along the freshman class during the season; when Pollack became unavailable, Hixon's second option was suddenly an inexperienced big.  Maybe he's just trying to find someone to bounce off Nabatoff (has Sanderson ever played?).  The advantage of getting a transfer is that he's already had a year of experience at college.  Even if he hasn't played much in games, he's at least been practicing constantly against other caliber players; in the case of D1 transfers, all that practice has been against D1 players; and in the case of one of these transfers, all that practice has been against PAC 12 players, which is kind of serious.  On top of all that, transfers have a year of being coached by a college coach, which opens up all sorts of avenues for the player's temperament. 

[amh63]

Been on other boards watching/following Amherst Spring sports....Men and Women Tennis teams in California battling No.1 teams for National titles!...today.   
Nescac.....check out the writeup of the terrific battle in the Womens match between No.2 Amherst and No.3 Williams....the defending Nayional Champs.... in the semis.   It was a contest going to the last few points.  Amherst usually wins the conference title but Williams seems to win the National Title.

I digress.....the board continues to thrive .  First it was due to the topic of Hart seeking to move up to Div 1.  Now it is about Div1 players moving to Div 3...down. Driven by news of two " possible  impact" players transfering to Amherst. 
Got my attention!
Reading the fine comments of Jayhawk, GoWes, and especially Ginger Baker...I'm hooked to post my thoughts on items drawn from cited posts and others.

The common theme is Recruits...both transfers and freshmen...to the conference in general and Amherst in particular.   Recruits are drawn to Amherst because of Hixon's built program/contacts and Amherst's ability to seek out talent....with the Nescac being a draw of having top athletic teams...in general.  Of course the academic reps of the schools helps.....GoWes's point, i believe.
Hixon has his rep and his widespread contacts.  Of course, one of next year's freshman recruits is a legacy...his father is a grad.  Berman, this year's freshman PG is also a legacy..his grandfather.  If they are a legacy, it means that they are evaluated early by the admission office on their chances to being admitted. Then there are other contacts.  Amherst has worked hard seeking out talent from around the World, the country and from all sources....especially from junior/community colleges.  In short, Amherst has made itself known. Amherst has also made available the financial resources to bring in students from all backgrounds....no loan policy in financial aid.
It should be noted that there is a freshman player from the SouthWest...possible contact for the transfer from Arizona?   It has been noted that talented players seek the Div I route for athletic scholarships.
It is also possible that D1 transfers to D3 conference schools like Amherst and Williams, etc. may find that the financial impact of such a move be very little in the end.

[nescac1]

amh63, all of those things about recruits being drawn to Amherst are absolutely true.  And Hixon has a keen eye for talent, for sure.  But the same could all be said for many other NESCAC schools, including Williams ... which has an equally good coach, who works equally hard (maybe harder, based on the geographic diversity of the roster which includes guys from places like Idaho, Oregon, Kentucky, North Carolina, and so on) to find players in all corners of the country, an equally strong academic reputation, just as many financial resources, and an equivalent record of national success in basketball over the years.  And yet, Amherst consistently brings in larger recruiting classes most years ... do you really think that is solely an issue of Amherst somehow landing every recruit it targets, or possibly, just possibly, a factor of admissions slotting more positions for men's basketball recruits?  Hixon obviously does a great job scouting and finding talent, and persuading that talent to attend.  But that isn't the ONLY factor that allows for him to build up such consistently large, stocked rosters ... I mean, come on, at some point Occam's razor comes into play. Note I don't say this across all sports -- including football, despite Amherst's recent success relative to Williams.   

If Maker or Jeff Brown could bring in a 6-8 man recruiting class every so often, I'm fairly confident they could dig up 6-8 really good student-athletes who would love to attend Williams or Midd.  In the end, you play with the hand you're dealt, but I do think it is pretty amazing that Hixon was given leeway to bring in two more transfers (regardless of how good they are as students, it is still a precious, hotly-contested spot in a small group of incoming students, including many rejected applicants who are undoubtedly equally strong students) to a sophomore class already stocked with seven strong basketball players. 

I will say, on the transfer front, that part of this is institutional policy.  Amherst brings in a lot more transfers, overall, than most NESCAC schools (and certainly far more than Williams).  Those transfers seem to be heavily concentrated in two areas: community college grads and other non-traditional students (an initiative I applaud, and wish Williams would emulate) and athletes.  It's been reported already that Amherst has at least three D1 transfers coming in for athletics next year (two for hoops, one for soccer).  There may well be more.  Amherst consistently seems to bring in impact higher-level transfers in a wide variety of sports, including a good number in football over the years.  And it seems like those transfers don't count against slots that would otherwise go to incoming frosh athletes.  Williams brings in very few transfers, period, and only a very small handful of transfer athletes, although as noted, it has been known to happen, as with Kilcullen -- but he was one of only two true basketball recruits, period, in that recruiting year. 

re: Pollack, I thought his injury, while serious enough to keep him out of the NCAA's, was not so severe as to be career threatening?  Wasn't it a ligament sprain or something, rather than a full reconstruction needed?  I imagine that he will be back and form a potent low-block duo with George next season.  For Amherst, the big question is who will be the primary ball-handlers and perimeter playmakers, and that question may have been partially answered by the FDU transfer. 

[jayhawk]

I think the dialogue continues to be about transfer as athletic slots?
So Eric Conklin had a 4.0 GPA in high school received according to the article and received an academic scholarship to Arizona
While at Arizona he had a 4.0 GPA so would likely have been competitive as a transfer in absence of sports and sports may have been the thing that differentiates him amongst applicants with equivalent academic credentials.


Jayde Dawson is a remarkable young man who may well have gotten into Amherst as transfer without sports. He wanted a better school
Without knowledge of the true facts everything here is conjecture without basis -- which can be wrong.   Sometimes I think conjecture does not respect those people whose personal information about why or why not they got into a specific college which is private and should be respected.

[nescac1]

No one (certainly not me) has denigrated the credentials of these individuals.  But the fact is that EVERYONE who gets accepted to Amherst (and its peers) is a remarkable person with those sort of attributes.  Heck, most of the people rejected have nearly perfect GPAs, SATs and so on.  You can turn a purposefully blind eye to how recruiting works at NESCAC schools if you want to, but the reality is, coaches get a set number of slots for kids (with some variability in the formula), some of whom would not otherwise be very competitive for admission (but still have tremendous credentials at the very top of the high school population) without support from coaches, others who would be.  But even for those who would be, the admissions percentage is incredibly low (something like 12 percent at Amherst, and I think much lower for transfers).  Put another way -- someone with average credentials for Amherst stands about a 1 in 10 chance of admission.  Someone with average credentials for Amherst (which, again, is an A student with a mid-1400's SAT, so no shame in that) who Hixon really wants stands a 100 percent chance of admission.  The same goes for other NESCAC schools.  The question is, how many of these average (or in some cases marginally below average) applicants does a particular coach get to pick? 

Now either Hixon is somehow miraculously, alone among NESCAC coaches, able to find 8-9 rocket scientists who would beat every other incredibly strong Amherst applicant out without any assistance from Hixon, or he gets an unusually large number of slots for supported applicants.  The fact is, a chemistry professor typically doesn't get to go to admissions and say "I want this kid," no matter how brilliant he is.  A NESCAC coach does.  It is unfair of you to continuously characterize this as denigrating anyone's academic character -- it's just stating a fact of how admissions works at these insanely competitive institutions.  All of the kids who get into NESCAC schools nowadays, athletes or not, are remarkably accomplished, along with the majority of kids who DON'T get in. 

[toad22]

Every school does what they want with admissions. They do what they believe is best for their school. I agree with that approach, and have no problem with Amherst doing what they think is best for their institution. Tom Parker has made it very plain that Amherst tiers their sports, and that they admit to need, not some formula. I wish Williams would do that, but they are more formulaic, and very democratic in institutional support across sports.  Basketball seems to be moving to more two sport basketball players, because we can't take the numbers that Amherst seems to be able to take to fill out the team.

Nobody at Williams expected that Amherst was done a few weeks ago. They had large needs going into next year, and they are trying to fill them. The kids they've taken look very good to me. As usual, I can't wait for next season!

[amh63]

Back again....Amherst wins Second National Title in mens Tennis! Cannot watch the Women's matches....much like OldGuy watching critical Panther BB games.

Guys...need to calm down...strange for me to say that?  Anyway, regardless of why a person transfer and whether it is a "slot" transfer or not...how the person impacts the team or season is another matter and/or topic, imo.
Nescac 1....you may have the key with respect to the difference between Amherst and other conference schools who also have the resources, coaches, etc.
First, i agreed that Williams has the resources and the coach in men's BB to pull in big classes.  Maker does recruit all over and Williams' coaches go everywhere...Wang is an example.  However, Hixon does have the years on Maker and therefore more contacts, etc. and a larger network setup, presently.  I do believe that the difference is Amherst, in general has gone after students...especially non-traditional students in groundbreaking ways.  Personal experience.
Over three decades ago, Amherst set up programs to recruit students from local community colleges.  Married students, older students that had raised a family and started a business before seeking a degree.  Funding for this effort even came from a former NFL owner foundation....Cooke, the late owner of the Redskins.  This was targeted for nationwide search from CC, where today over 50 percent of the most talented students enroll...primarily due to money.   Amherst has funds set aside to support veterans...who often are asked to go to a CC first before enrolling into colleges like Amherst...adjustment period to college classes found in Nescac schools.  Having stated that, i believe therefore, that it is easier for students to transfer in for whatever reason.  Amherst has a no loan policy for international  students that cannot get Federal loans.
Examples of athletes...D1 level that entered...transferred in.   There was a fine all conference football player that arrived from Colgate not a few years back.  He played football and baseball in HS. Drafted as a pitcher by a MLB team.  Contract had a clause that would pay for his college after baseball.  Torn his arm and decided to try football in the Patriot League once outside of baseball.  Decided to transfer to Amherst, paying his own way. Guess he wanted more PT.  I believe he recruited Amherst.
Other examples happen to be in WBB...yes basketball.  New coach comes to Amherst and one sees two Div1 level recruits arrive that helped Amherst win a National Title.  One was a transfer from UVM, a player that went to a prep school nearby Amherst.  The other was scheduled to go to the Air Force Academy but did not pass the physical.  She came to Amherst knowing its rep with Medical Schools.  I believe that the Amherst coach had his eye on both while in high school.

Long story to point out that a long established program for transfer students has benefited Amherst in athletics.  Slotted students?  Oh yes, the BB player from UVM...her younger sister was a starter on this year's team.  Two other FY players who had mucho playing time are from the capital city of VA.  The connection to Amherst is through the mother who went to Mt Holyoke and MIT and knew about Amherst....the school and the Coach.  Why players end up where they graduate from is a puzzle.
Last note.  During this year's Nescac conference title game...i saw a former dean of students and soon to be new Dean of Admission and Financial Aid at the game, enjoying themselves and the win over Williams

[grabtherim]

Funny, like every other discussion here, this one ends up being a Williams/Amherst debate with accusations followed by justifications, and finally "with all due respect, that's not what I meant".  Time for you guys to create a new group called WillVsAmh or AmhVsWill, the name being one more thing you can debate ad nauseam.     

[GingerBaker]

That's what happens when you comment on the commentary instead of the situation (much as I have just now)