MBB: NESCAC

[iwumichigander]

I'm sure there were folks who similarly wrote off Williams in December last year after losing to S Vermont and playing some uncomfortably close games against inferior opponents. How'd that work out for the Ephs?

Personally, I don't recall anyone writing off Williams this time last year.  After all, they had two returning All-NESCAC players (not to mention a perhaps once-in-a-lifetime recruit, though I am not sure most of us fully appreciated that latter point at the time).  Ironically, the only time I recall seeing some of the Eph faithful "rushing for the exits" last year was during halftime in Pepin.

I think some outside of the NESCAC without familiarity of the Williams program may have written off Williams this time last year

[Old Guy]

Having grown up at Bates, I am excited by their great start this year. There's no ice hockey team at Bates, so there's basketball fever there, always. I saw 1000 games (well, 100s anyway) in Alumni Gym growing up. Played there whenever I could get in a game.

When I was just starting out, in my first job about 20 miles from Lewiston, I was able to play on the Bates faculty/staff intramural team in their "A" league (we were pretty good) as a "faculty child," a stretch. Our games often started at 10:00 or 11:00 at night - there were A, B, and C leagues. Always we went for beers at the Blue Goose afterwards. I taught some bad classes on the mornings after those games.

With family still in Maine, I get to some games there every winter. Unless there's a blizzard, I'll be there for the Panther-Bobcat tilt on January 9 this year. I hope Bates wins every game they play, except against Middlebury. Go Bobcats! Go Panthers!

[lumbercat]

OG-know you have Garnet roots and appreciate your support. If you were able to see any of the game would love your insights. This looks a good Bobcat club to me.

[Bucket]

Pretty good basketball team up in Lewiston folks.
The Delpeche twins are the most athletic big men in the league and getting better by the game.
Bates coach Furbush coming of age in the same way.
Alumni Gym was nuts tonight in the Bates tradition.

Nice, emphatic win by the Bobcats, tho I will wait until they win one when it counts (against Bowdoin, in conference play) before I'm willing to heap too much praise on them. I was burned once--last season after their conference-opening win in Pepin--in terms of declaring Bates a team to reckon with. They proceeded to lay an egg, going winless the rest of conference play. As far as declaring the Delpeche Twins the most athletic big men in the conference--very nice players, yes, but David George says hello.

[lumbercat]

Very good comments Bucket-agree

[Old Guy]

The Delpeche twins are a year older - Bates has size up front for the first time in a long while. Boornazian at the 3 is easy to like - big and strong, can shoot the three and go inside too (though he was 4-16 against Bowdoin and the Bobcats still won by 20). Now he's a junior, his apprenticeship over.

Selman is a nice all-round player. It may be that as Safford goes, so go the Bobcats. Last year, he had a terrific first half and not-so-good second half. May have tried to do too much. Seems to be distributing the ball better this year, trusting his teammates. Bates' had a "straight" tonight: the starters went 12,11,10,9, 8.

They have some depth with four bench players getting double-digit minutes tonight. Good team, no doubt. This win against Bowdoin, along with the Colby win, are confidence builders: they know they can beat anyone. With just one conference win last year (against Middlebury, at Middlebury!), this fast start is just what they needed, I would think.

Swords: my sense of Swords, from a small personal sample, is that he is a nice piece of the puzzle: he's an athlete, gets up and down the floor, cleans up misses, is a presence in the middle, but he's not going to be the focus of the offense. He's not Kevin McHale. Still, two shots and three rebounds against Bates in 30 minutes is hard to explain. Did Bates just pack it in (Bowdoin was 4-15 from three)? Was he doubled by the Bobcat twin towers?

Was last year's Polar Bear supporting cast that much better? One would think that Hurley being at full strength, and with Pieri and Hausman, there's not that big a fall-off. Maybe P'bear fan can help with a comparison of this year's and last year's five. 

The Bates gym, though I love it, does convey perhaps the most significant home court advantage in NESCAC. The Bobcat fans love to beat Bowdoin more than anyone else, including Colby, so the atmosphere was fully charged no doubt. However, the league games with Bowdoin and Colby, which "count, are away this year.

Also, this is the end of the term - papers due, exams coming up. I spoke to a Middlebury starter today who was beat, having stayed up all night finishing a paper. Bowdoin may simply not have been quite ready to play.

January is different. Midd has a winter term for full credit starting right away in January, but it does allow for more academic flexibility. Other schools have very long holiday breaks, well into January (am I right, the Amherst calendar allows students not to do any academic work in January, if they so choose? Convenient for athletes, if so). Players are rested.

It's still early.

[lumbercat]

Thanks Old Guy-
Valued input from a guy who has seen many games from a Bobcat and Panther perspective- appreciate your thoughts.
My take was that we saw 2 fine point guards tonight.....in my opinion Safford and Hurley played each other very tough but Safford outplayed Hurley pretty well.
However, As the Old Panther points out all bets are off when the Garnet and Black pull into Brunswick in 2015.

[pinseeking1]

Really enjoyed the Bates-Bowdoin game tonight. I'll go ahead and say it after 7 games: This team is for real. Maybe not quite up at the top NESCAC level yet, but I see improvement in every game.

The Delpeche brothers are playing above the rim and are dominating on the boards. Most of their scoring comes from inside (usually inside of the rim!) with massive dunks on great cuts to the basket. There were a few instances of shaky hands on plays that should have been great assists to them, but these twins are becoming a force. They would not let Swords near the basket and he hardly even touched the ball. Great defense.

Also, once again the starters showed great balance and (mostly) good shot selection. Boornazian, Safford and Selmon all had great stretches of high level play.

One sign of weakness for Bates was their offensive play against Bowdon's 2-3 zone defense. Even though the Bobcats shot 42% from the arc, most of those shots came when The PBs were playing man to man. The Bobcats need to get better shots against the zone. I'm not sure why the PBs went back to man...

I loved the play of FY Justin Zukowski, the backup point guard. He plays HARD and was in the face of his man all night in limited minutes. He dove head first into a pile to force a jump ball and looks like he has a good handle. I hope he gets more seasoning along the way as the Bobcats will be without Safford next year and will need a PG.

Hausman was phenomenal for Bowdon. He was the only consistent scorer for the PBs and didn't take any bad shots. He kept Bowdoin in the game until midway through the second half.

I'm not sure why some people are discounting two wins over Colby and Bowdoin just because these weren't NESCAC games. Every game against those guys is big. I'll admit that last season's flop after a big win at Middlebury is still fresh, so it's hard to make big predictions. But I like the trend of this team...

[magicman]

I think their probation period ends this week with two more victories and we'll see them comfortably in the Top 25 next time around.  If Plattsburgh manages to get past Keene and be 7-1 by their 1/6 matchup, that win will push Midd up into the Top 10 when they beat them.

Madz, it won't take long for magicman to write a treatise on that one!

middhoops,

It did take me a while as I've been so busy at my store and with my SUNYAC commitments to put my two cents into this equation. The Top 25 in my opinion right now is quite a mess. I see teams that are ranked that shouldn't be and other teams that have no support at all that should be in the Top 25.  So much of being ranked at this point in time is due to getting noticed in the preseason poll. If a team is in that poll and comes out of the gate with a good start then they move up in the polls as the teams that were listed above them lose.  Springfield, Bowdoin, and Eastern Connecticut are examples of teams, just from the Northeast Region alone, that saw this happen. Middlebury, and Cortland State are examples of 2 teams that are undefeated, weren't mentioned in the preseason poll, and have yet to get a mention in the Top 25 poll. Yet there are teams with several losses, and not necessarily good losses, that are still getting points in the poll. It will take another 3 or 4 weeks to really get a feel for the teams that deserve to be ranked. Right now I see that there are 12 teams from the Northeast Region that are in the Top 25 and ORV category. I don't see a single one from the East Region. I personally feel there is something wrong with that. I find it hard to believe that there are 12 teams in New England that are better than every team in the East. I see a SUNYAC team, Oneonta, picked to come in the middle of the pack in that conference, beat Williams on the Ephs home court. I see Hartwick, a so-so team from the Empire 8 conference, defeat Eastern Connecticut. Last year teams in the East Region won at least 6 NCAA games and those teams weren't ranked for most of the year. My Plattsburgh State Cardinals defeated 2 teams from New England last year in the NCAA tournament by double digit margins, MIT and Eastern Connecticut. We were never ranked the entire year and after making the Sweet 16 we were ranked #25 in the final poll. We returned as much or more talent than both of those teams and I believe if we face them again this year we'll stand a good chance of repeating last year's results. Both of those teams have losses and are in the Top 25 (although MIT was undefeated when the last vote was taken) and if MIT is the #11 team in the country then Plattsburgh State should be #10. Plattsburgh is 4-1 with all 5 games coming away from home. Their only loss is to an undefeated Western Connecticut team by a 5 point margin when the Cardinals were without the services of their point guard. Massey Ratings, by the way, has Plattsburgh ranked #21 in the country with the 10th toughest schedule among the top 21 teams.

I was surprised to see that Madz has already credited Middlebury with the win against the Cardinals in the matchup that will take place on Jan. 6th in Plattsburgh. I sure hope he is correct when he states that Midd will comfortably be in the Top 25 when the next poll come out if they win their next 2 games. I'd like to think that we can also accommodate him and win our 2 conference games this weekend, before that tough road game over an improved Keene State team.

So I'm hoping the 8-0 Middlebury Panthers, ranked in the Top 25, will invade Memorial Hall on Jan. 6th to take on my 7-1 Plattsburgh State Cardinals, who, if they're lucky, may be receiving some votes in the ORV category (but I'm not counting on it). I don't expect a one sided affair like last year's Plattsburgh win turned out to be, as these two teams usually engage in a down to the wire nailbiter. I expect a Middlebury contingent of middhoops, Vandy74, Old Guy and Bucket to possibly make the journey to the Burgh to take in the action. I'll buy the pizza and we can all meet at Meron's before the game for a beverage of choice.

I won't jinx my Cards by predicting a win this early, but by game day will probably go with them to start a winning streak in this series. Of interest worth noting, is that if this game was played tomorrow, Mr Massey has made the Cardinals a 7 point favorite. with a 76% chance of victory. I sure hope he's right and not mazillagd.

Almost forgot...plus K to all my Middlebury friends mentioned above.
         
     

[polbear73]

To take nothing away from Bates, I have been concerned all along that the loss of Madlinger, White and Mathias would be too much for Bowdoin to withstand and be a top tier team, a worry that seems confirmed after two 20 point road losses to good teams.  In addition to their on-court contributions of consistent and clutch 3 point shooting and defense, these three provided solid senior leadership, chemistry and a toughness.  Additionally, it allowed Hausman to come off the bench to provide offensive spark when needed, something sorely lacking so far. Unless they can integrate Swords into the offense more, become more consistent in shooting beyond the arc, and revert to playing the tough defense of last year, I am afraid that a .500 NESCAC record is beyond reach.  This team has talent and can cause problems with anyone, I just doubt they are a top tier team right now.

[middhoops]

magicman -- We knew you'd come through.  Thanks.

Polbear73 --  Good analysis.

Bucket --  Zactly.

[amh63]

I guess I missed an interesting game in Maine between the "B" teams.  Got to remind myself  to watch the rematch in the game that counts in the conference.
Been reading Magicman's treatise wrt rankings and no respect for the SUNY teams, etc.  Others have posted here and elsewhere on the same points...First citing the early polls, dismissing the value of them...including myself...and then getting annoyed at posters that question the number of bids that the CAC could/may get into the post season. 
Some thoughts have been festering in my mind on the matter.  In defense of Hoops Fan, the underlying worry by most posters here is the criteria that the ranking committee uses for post season selection.  Yes, the SOS criteria that has in itself changed over the years.  The early season losses, the wins against weak teams, vice strong teams in different conferences of perceived strengths...all of these have not changed that much over the years, imo.  Neither has the whys and what's of the impact of pre-season polls and early polls.  We have had these discussions before.  We have dismissed early rankings before and we have had the same worries.  Why and what is different about this season...other than different posters raising questions.  I will raise some points that may explain why the concerns are at a different level this season.
The quality of teams from other conferences are improving.  Yes, other schools are improving their teams..hence, more surprises and unexpected early losses.
This season, there is more unknowns about the quality of the the teams in the conference.  I  think most posters here believe the conference is leveling out...due in part to the talent level added among teams along with the unknown impact of the new players.  In short, the team later in the season will be better than the early part.  At least I hope so.  Where am I going.....
I am coming to the conclusion that the CAC teams are seeing the impact of the late start of thie season wrt to other conferences.  Conference teams, many with young players that need to be meshed into their team, are playing OOC opponents that are better and have played more games.  Trinity has suffered some early losses, but have won their last three games.  I know that Amherst is still working out their rotation while evaluating their players on hand.  Tufts, I believe is still working out their rotation.  Same case up at Williams.  Heck, WES trounced a team last night that gave Amherst fits. 
I believe the points Hoops Fan raised are valid.  The landscape of conferences is changing along with the level of play.  The good thing is that the pollers are " confused" ...so many upsets are occurring to date.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

The biggest thing, with more teams in some of the regions means more ranked teams, which means more games against ranked teams.  More teams will also lessen the Northeast benefit of being able to schedule weaker opponents who also have good records.  There just isn't going to be as much margin for error as our region has enjoyed the last few years.

[JEFFFAN]

There was an inevitable leveling of the playing field when a league has players like Olson, Killian, Robinson, and Epes leave the league after such stellar careers.   In the case of Olson, inarguably a top five player in NESCAC history ... and the rest were very, very good players.   So where the league is now is not all that surprising.  Let's wait until the middle of the season to see if there is any true leveling going on.   Amherst has reloaded nicely - Williams the same - so some early season toe-stubbing was bound to happen.   Midd was always going to be good this year, but as to the others ... lets give it a little time before we talk about long-term leveling.

[nescac1]

Olson?  I assume you mean Toomey.  But yeah, when you lose two of the three most talented players (one unexpectedly) in NCAA-era NESCAC history (I rank them Robinson, Nogelo, Toomey, in that order, and those are pretty clearly the top three), plus FOUR more all-American caliber guys (Epley, Kizel, Mayer, Hart), again, one unexpectedly, plus Killian, who had a fantastic senior year, that is a lot to overcome in one offseason.  NESCAC never has before, and I'll bet never will again, have such a pronounced talent drain in a single offseason.