MBB: NESCAC

[Bucket]

Passing judgment on a kid's ability when he is sick...that seems to be right up there with declining to postpone a game when the other team is beset with illness.

I would have thought Bates would have wanted to postpone the game to avoid having  this nasty bug passed on to them. Whatever it takes to get the W, I guess.

[Folks who know me know I'm not normally this salty, but so much about this episode has rubbed me the wrong way.]

[grabtherim]

Sorry to hear that a bug seems to be running thru the Panthers team.  Hope they are more fit on Sunday.  Illness like injuries are part of what you face during a season.  When they are used as an explanation they too often come off as an excuse at the least or whining at the most.  Given all of that, I will say that Bates won the game fair and square, played well when they neeeded to and have a fine team which is a work in progress (like every other team) at this point of the season.  I cannot figure out why Furbush does not run more stuff to get the twins active down low.  I understand high screens up top, but they can just as easily run similar down low for each other and create space to operate where they can really do some serious damage and then be in better position to kill teams on the boards.  On to Tufts, fingers crossed.  Bucket - have a drink or two or three, it may well be a bumpy ride.  Old Guy - Hope to join you for a pacing session at some point this season in Peppin.  Long way to go.     

[AmherstStudent05]

I am very intrigued by this idea that Middlebury asked for a postponement of last night's game with Bates.  First, can we confirm that such a request was made?  Are there rules governing the grounds/procedures for postponing a conference game.  In this case, neither team is playing today but even so I would think that Conference approval would be required as it could have an effect on competitive balance league wide (for instance, I don't think Amherst and Hamilton could have mutually agreed to postpone last night's game in order to give us more time to prepare for Williams today).

More to the point though, is there any precedent for a game being postponed due to illness (as opposed to weather, which we know has happened in the recent past).  Seems like a very odd and slippery slope to me and I am not sure I am aware of any examples.  Again, I only caught the last minute of last night's game, so I have no idea how illness affected Midd's chances (though a cursory review of the box score seems to give support for Bucket and Old Guy's first hand accounts that Brown and MSA were playing at much reduced capacity).  However, Midd nearly won the game last night!  Accordingly, it is hard for me to see how illness nearly incapacitated the entire team when they almost beat a game Bates squad on the road.  If Middlebury was on the verge of forfeiting last night's contest, then that would be an entirely different story.  I need to think more on this, but, at first blush, I see absolutely nothing wrong with Bates declining to postpone last night's game, if that is indeed what occurred.  Where would it end?  Should all Williams games be postponed until HRL returns?

Actually, one instance of a match being postponed due to illness comes to mind.  I am a huge tennis fan.  In the 1990s, Pete Sampras and Andre Agassi were slated to play in the finals of the tournament down in Key Biscayne (often referred to by players as the fifth major).  On the morning of the finals, Pistol Pete woke up feeling very sick and informed the tournament organizers.  The tournament referee went to Agassi and asked if the final could be pushed back a few hours so that Sampras might recover.  Agassi agreed!  And, you might guess the rest of the story.  Sampras indeed did recover and went on to beat Andre that day. 

[polbear73]

Passing judgment on a kid's ability when he is sick...that seems to be right up there with declining to postpone a game when the other team is beset with illness.

I would have thought Bates would have wanted to postpone the game to avoid having  this nasty bug passed on to them. Whatever it takes to get the W, I guess.

[Folks who know me know I'm not normally this salty, but so much about this episode has rubbed me the wrong way.]

I can certainly understand this viewpoint and declining to postpone does sound harsh on the surface.  But I doubt that we know all of the factors that went into the decision, especially the compact nature of the schedule between now and the middle of February as well as the distance between Middlebury and Bates.  This team illness is unfortunate and sounds bad, but where does one draw the line?  Thin teams with one injury and two guys out with the flu would ask for postponements all of the time.  Short of flat out not being able to travel because of nature, it seems that a hard line of playing regardless of circumstances is only fair to everyone.  I'm sorry for Middlebury, but everyone suffers injury and illness. 

[Bucket]

Passing judgment on a kid's ability when he is sick...that seems to be right up there with declining to postpone a game when the other team is beset with illness.

I would have thought Bates would have wanted to postpone the game to avoid having  this nasty bug passed on to them. Whatever it takes to get the W, I guess.

[Folks who know me know I'm not normally this salty, but so much about this episode has rubbed me the wrong way.]

I can certainly understand this viewpoint and declining to postpone does sound harsh on the surface.  But I doubt that we know all of the factors that went into the decision, especially the compact nature of the schedule between now and the middle of February as well as the distance between Middlebury and Bates.  This team illness is unfortunate and sounds bad, but where does one draw the line?  Thin teams with one injury and two guys out with the flu would ask for postponements all of the time.  Short of flat out not being able to travel because of nature, it seems that a hard line of playing regardless of circumstances is only fair to everyone.  I'm sorry for Middlebury, but everyone suffers injury and illness.

Valid points raised by both you and AS05. It is an extremely slippery slope. My guess is that this was a case of the total number of players sick and exhibiting symptoms being an eye-popping 9 kids that led to the request. Of course, 8 of the 9 played (albeit at reduced capacity), so make of that what you will. I would also suspect that this request was made with the Bates players health in mind, but again, that's speculation on my part.

[lumbercat]

Bucket-
I guess you are saying that this cry baby routine is out of character for you and those who know you would understand  that. Whatever it takes to get it out of your system I guess. You'll be less "salty" on Sunday when the Panthers handle Tufts.
To vilify Bates for not postponing the game is absurd. Let this "episode" go and stop embarrassing a great Middlebury team.

[Bucket]

Bucket-
I guess you are saying that this cry baby routine is out of character for you and those who know you would understand  that. Whatever it takes to get it out of your system I guess. You'll be less "salty" on Sunday when the Panthers handle Tufts.
To vilify Bates for not postponing the game is absurd. Let this "episode" go and stop embarrassing a great Middlebury team.

I'm assuming this comment is directed at Old Guy, as well, who has made the same observations I have. In fact, he was the one who first raised the postponement request and denial! Or does his Batesie ties earn him an exemption in your eyes? It's funny--I've consulted for Bates and have long admired the school and the underdog pluck of its athletics teams. I was feeling a bit guilty for my less than charitable attitude, but you're making it easier on my conscience. So thanks for that.

And if you care to notice, my last point was affirming the validity of those asking questions. Not sure how that is either vilifying or crying.

[nescacobserver]

It's good to see Pollack out there, and Ray Barry in uniform during warmups.  Jade Dawson playing more under control now.  The bandage is off Connor Green's shooting hand, and David George was an absolute beast last night.  Aaron Toomey on the bench giving tips to players during timeouts.  Should be a fun game to watch in Williamstown today.

[polbear73]

Agree that it's a moot point now and it's time to congratulate Bates for a good win and Middlebury for displaying guts and heart in almost knocking off a good team in a tough place to play.  I will be rooting for Midd, except, of course, when they travel to Brunswick on Feb 8th. 

[lumbercat]

No Bucket I intended to direct my comments to you.
Old Guy made his points in a classy way as usual. Agree or disagree there was no whining on his part.
Specifically it was your sour grapes approach that I was addressing.

[nescac1]

Seems like Amherst is getting healthy at just the wrong time for Williams ... the Ephs really did miss Hayden's shooting both from three and the line last night.  I swear, Williams must have bad karma because ever since Mayer's shot to go ahead in the national championship game, which was the culmination of several weeks of the best play I've EVER seen from a Williams team, nothing has gone right for the Ephs ... from the incredible play by Quardell Young to win the title, to Maker and then Robinson departing (just the worst possible timing for Maker, because had he stayed, Robinson would have been an Eph for life I'm quite confident), then the injury to Hayden late in the WPI game after he'd been lighting it up all year, then two hard-luck losses in games that the Ephs, in my view, really should have been able to win.  I'm hoping the Ephs are due for a few breaks, but I have to wonder how much they have left in the tank -- especially Daniel Wohl, who really carried the team on his back. 

Yeah, the free throw woes in the OTs were brutal, but he was beyond running on fumes at that point (most of the misses were way short), his shot was actually a bit off from the very beginning of the game (both from 3 and from the line), and clearly it got into his head a bit.  I give the guy credit when he was the focus of every defensive possession, and wasn't on with his shot, that he was able to score over 30 vs. a tough defensive team through sheer force of will.  That was one of the guttiest, digging-deep performances I've seen from an Eph.  Wohl does SO much for Williams on both ends of the floor, he has to be the early favorite for NESCAC POY at this point.  With Hayden out Greenman and Aronowitz are the only other guys who generally have any hope to create their own shots, and both of them are still young players developing greater consistency from night to night. 

To beat Amherst, Wohl is really, really going to need more help.  Aronowitz played very well and needs to be even more aggressive on offense, but Greenman and Kilcullen both struggled mightily with their outside shot (although Greenman did make a few gorgeous plays in the lane), and the frosh simply need to step up and make more plays in Hayden's absence.  It will certainly not be easy coming off a draining (physical and emotional) loss, but Amherst did have to travel from Hamilton and I can only hope they are a bit worn down as well, and that the frenzied Chandler crowd will give the Eph tired legs a big pick-me-up.  Williams will have to hit its free throws and threes, for certain, at a much more efficient rate this afternoon to even stand a chance, because Amherst has a lot more scoring threats than Trinity. 

As for Trinity, Jacquann Starks was simply on fire last night, really good player -- the rest of the team, however, couldn't throw the ball in the ocean from outside of two feet.  Given their size, strength and depth disadvantage, the Ephs did an admirable job on the glass and defending the interior, but Trinity still got a fair number of interior buckets just through sheer physical dominance.  Ed Ogundeko had three flat-out NASTY blocks, I haven't seen that sort of interior defensive play in Chandler since the days of Troy Whittington.  His skill set could use some refinement (especially his ball-handling), but when he is within a few feet of the basket, he's a beast.  I never understand why Papadeas doesn't score more for Trinity.  He always has a few absolutely beautiful moves per game when he plays Williams, looks like he could be an elite center, but then is very quiet / doesn't touch the ball for long stretches.  He does have a tendency to pick up silly fouls, which limits his minutes a bit.  Still, I don't think any big guy in NESCAC has smoother interior scoring moves; in my mind, he should be a 15-20 ppg scorer. 

[amh63]

Not much posting wrt to the Bowdoin blow-out of Conn....and the high scoring game between Wes and Colby.
Some comments of the Amherst win by 7-points over Hamilton.  So much for a low scoring game.  George scores 29 points inside and on the foul line and Green gets his outside shot back and scores 25....that is 54 points.  Add JMac's 15 in the first half and Dawsons' 15 and you are up to 84!  The stats for the Amherst team are very good.
PG Lin played very well with 16 points and 16...yes 16 assists...guess that is an indication of Hamilton's shooting with 7 makes from outside.  Santos a low post player looked good but he was ineffective when Pollack was in.  Ben played well in his 9 min....1 assist, 1 block, 1 steal and 2 rebounds with authority...message given to the front line of Hamilton.  Amherst did stop the Continentals' 3 game winning streak.
Seems that the local stats keeper was generous to the home team on blocks and ignored the ones made by Amherst.
Amherst had a double digit lead for most of the second half and had a 13 point lead with just over 2 and half minutes to go.  Started thinking about Middhoops generous prediction.   The last minute was extended by Hamilton putting the Jeffs on the foul line...fouling even in the last 30 sec.  Oh well...different coaching approach.

[Bucket]

No Bucket I intended to direct my comments to you.
Old Guy made his points in a classy way as usual. Agree or disagree there was no whining on his part.
Specifically it was your sour grapes approach that I was addressing.

Like shooting fish in a barrel. Old Guy and I will have a good laugh over this when we get together this week.

And if I'm not mistaken, you started everything off by making excuses about the crowd, or lack there of. But whatever. Selective memory is a convenient crutch.

I agree with polbear73 that it's time to move ahead, and I very much look forward to discussions about basketball with fan bases that are not riddled with insecurities.

[lumbercat]

Bucket-
Good to hear you talk of moving on after the rough time you were having dealing with the loss.
I agree.
It's on to Medford and the rest of the NESCAC season.
Good luck to Middlebury tomorrow.

[GoWesYoungMan]

Wes and Colby last night were evenly matched in a close game with multiple lead changes. As is often the case it came down to shooting. Wes won nearly every statistical category ( boards, assists, steals, blocks, turnovers) but were outshot 56% to 46%. Wes led at half 44-37 and did a nice job of keeping Hudnut off the block. Sam Wilson for Colby stepped up big time with 26 points on 9-14 shooting, mostly in the first half. Give the mules credit for finding Hudnut in the second half. The key stretch was early in the second half when the score was flipped from 49-40 Wes to 58-53 Colby. The officiating seemed fair team vs team but many more calls both ways in the second half with double bonus on both sides for the last 5 minutes. A decent but  too polite crowd to create much home court advantage. For Wes Kuo and Epps continue to be productive down low and our perimeter guys played well but were slightly below their season shooting clip. A game we could and probably should win at home. Can't dwell on it. Bowdoin up next.