MBB: NESCAC

[nescac1]

Ray was Class of 2007.  Very, very hyped recruit, and lived up to it from day 1.  Really quick with the ball, and nasty defender; if he had played for Amherst or Williams would have been a LOT more acclaimed ... really not far behind his contemporary Andrew Olson as a point guard:

http://athletics.bates.edu/sports/mbkb/2006-07/bios/zak_ray_1485.html

[Bucket]

Ellis stats during his sr year campaign, enought to earn him 2nd team all nescac:

http://athletics.bates.edu/sports/mbkb/2010-11/teams/bates?view=lineup

Safford's sr year thus far:

http://nescac.com/sports/mbkb/2014-15/teams/bates?sort=ptspg&tmpl=teaminfo-network-monospace-template

Make of it what you will, but "pales in comparison" doesn't come to my mind when I look at the numbers. Also need to take any Bucket comment on Safford or Bates with a grain of salt because he clearly has some sort of axe to grind.

For what it is worth, this is coming from someone who hates Bates with the fire of 1000 suns (I also have a general distaste for Bowdoin too). I was going to jump back into the convo that was kicking around after the Bates/Midd game, thought better of it, but Bucket just can't seem to let it go.

I'm curious as to what it is I'm not letting go? Was it saying this of Safford: "as fine a player as he is"? Or was it saying that in my opinion, seconded by nescac1, Brian Ellis is far more deserving of being deemed the best Bobcat in recent memory. Please notice that I am singling out and singing the praises of another Bobcat. So how, exactly, is this grinding an axe with regards to Bates, as I'm being accused of?

I honestly intended no knock on Safford (thus the "as fine a player..."), but wanted to emphasize how good Brian Ellis was. Brian Ellis, who went to Bates.

Since my weeks-ago commentary on the Bates-Midd game, I've probably posted two dozen times, including an expression of gratitude to lumbercat for his classy post about my family. Not once have I had a negative thing to say about Bates. It seems like the only axe grinding or continued harping on a theme is coming from somewhere else.

[hoya73]

We're with you Bucket--one moment of temporary insanity has long been forgiven and forgotten by most of the folks here!  I was around for the Zak Ray years--he was to be feared for sure, but I recollect that he was better in the second half, when Bates was behind and he could free-style (at least versus the league powers) than during the first half of games when he was trying to run the system and stay in the game.  Nobody quicker (or even close) in the league at that time.

[amh63]

Watched the Williams game last night on my flat screen TV and enjoyed the "breakout" games of Connor Green and Reid Berman!   Reid with 36 min vice Dawson with 7 min.  Both school websites did a nice writeup of the game.  Williams HBC made some "classy" comments wrt to the game and the level of play of his team. 
Since other Amherst posters did a very nice job of the game, I will post a few comments from my perspective.
Coach Hixon in his comments to Hoopsville's Man...commented on the strength of Williams team was in the leadership of the returning veterans..especially the upperclassman!  Last night's game was tight because of the play of the Daniels...Daniel W. And Daniel A....both coming up big with key shots, rebounds.  Amherst stayed with Williams because of the returning starters in Conner Green and David George.  When Wohl scored 13 pts in the first half, Green scored 12. Wohl had 24 at the end of regulation and Green had 20.  It was in OT when Green scored 10 and Amherst out scored the EPHs 12-2.
In a sense, the difference maker, imo, was Reid with his assists and late drives to the basket to score! Yes, he took outside shots.  Dawson took outside shots too.  Believe the coaches told the PGs to take them or the other teams will "pack" the passing lanes.  Reid was left alone by Greenman and drove the lanes.  Amherst missed the lane drives of Kalema, Killian and Toomey, imo, that opened up the outside game.
Several posters seemed to miss my chatter here.  Some comments on the matter.  Last Thursday, my two Amherst sons and their wives came for a visit over the long weekend.  They helped me setup my flat screen TV to accept D3 broadcasted games...several methods.  Though I did watch the Tufts and Bates games...very depressing for me...I decided to wait for after the Williams game to post.  I wanted to see if Amherst could be consistent in their play.  I did not even read the boards since my wife wanted my attention elsewhere. .
Also, I got hacked last Thursday and I needed to ensure that i cleaned out the system and fixed the problem for awhile.
Wrt to the Tufts and Bates game...one only has to look at the stats of both games to find the answers to why Amherst lost and won.  Tufts big men and underrated guards out played Amherst's front court and back court.  Amherst front court and backcourt did the same to Bates' front court and backcourt.
I did watch other D3 games of interest to me...the Midd game on Sunday and the ECSU crushing of Keene State in New Hampshire to maintain its lead in the LEC..may help Amherst's SOS and post season chances.
Key game this Sat with Trinity in LeFrak.  Oh yes, Amherst's semester starts today! LeFrak was filled with fans for the Little Three game.
It's midseason...the CAC is led by Tufts...an early season favorite... with one of the conference's worst records to date.  Bowdoin, another early title contender seems also to be rising.
Oh forgot...Daniel Wohl made a monster flush down over DGeorge early in the game!   Williams coach called a time out when David George started to score in the paint...passes from Berman.
One last remark...when Tufts was stomping on the LJs in LeFrak, the Jumbos were also crushing the Lady Jeffs in Medford...strange...was it the moon or the water?  Tufts was just too tough!

[Old Guy]

"Finally, the prior complaints about Bates not willing to reschedule from the Midd contingent are beyond ridiculous" Booyakasha.

Sorry, Booyakasha, not ridiculous. Though I played hoop at Midd (100 years ago) and worked there (here) for 40 years, I'm a Bobcat at heart, as many longtime posters are aware. My dad worked at Bates for 38 years (the admissions building is named after him) and 17 of my blood relatives went there (father, mother, sister, aunts, uncles, cousins). I played hoop at Lewiston High, grew up in the Bates gym.  I love Bates and wish hoop success on them every year; they have no ice hockey so hoop is a passion - and that old gym is a shrine.

But . . but being unwilling to reschedule ONE DAY is questionable at least. Midd had nine players who missed practice on Thursday, the day before to trek to Maine, a couple of players were in the hospital rehydrating. As I understand it, Midd asked to push the game back till Saturday, to allow for one day of recovery. Bates had only one game that weekend, Middlebury, and Midd didn't have go to Tufts till Sunday (Midd being the team with no playing partner this year). It seemed a reasonable request, no? One day. A courtesy that teams in NESCAC might naturally extend to one another. Bates blew a chance to make a point: sportsmanship. To me, being diplomatic, Bates's demurral is unfortunate.

There's every possibility I don't have the full story. I'd love to hear the Bates' side. The fact that Midd lost by four (in Lewiston) when a number of our best players were clearly sick (I was at the game) is a profiles-in-courage event. I'll still root for Bates in every game except when they play the Panthers, but I'm disappointed. I think they blew a chance to make an important point about sports in the larger sense.

By the way, I like Safford, a Bangor boy who's overcome a lot. He's the the archetypal "tough kid," that you want on your team who opponents hate. I wish him well (reminds me of Kizel).

"Beyond ridiculous," I don't think so. But as Bill B. said, "on to Cincinnati." To further discuss the matter is querulous and we are moving on, have moved on.

[middhoops]

Finally, the prior complaints about Bates not willing to reschedule from the Midd contingent are beyond ridiculuous.
[/quote]
Is this true?
Unlike some posters, I have NO inside info. 
What I have heard involved the highest levels of administration at Midd deciding whether or not to forfeit the game, with the team making the final decision.  But this is only well articulated rumor as far as I actually know.
What are the facts?

[MENESCACFAN]

Thanks NESCAC1.  3 time all-conference and defensive POY?  That is quite the resume.

[booyakasha]

Ellis stats during his sr year campaign, enought to earn him 2nd team all nescac:

http://athletics.bates.edu/sports/mbkb/2010-11/teams/bates?view=lineup

Safford's sr year thus far:

http://nescac.com/sports/mbkb/2014-15/teams/bates?sort=ptspg&tmpl=teaminfo-network-monospace-template

Make of it what you will, but "pales in comparison" doesn't come to my mind when I look at the numbers. Also need to take any Bucket comment on Safford or Bates with a grain of salt because he clearly has some sort of axe to grind.

For what it is worth, this is coming from someone who hates Bates with the fire of 1000 suns (I also have a general distaste for Bowdoin too). I was going to jump back into the convo that was kicking around after the Bates/Midd game, thought better of it, but Bucket just can't seem to let it go.

I'm curious as to what it is I'm not letting go? Was it saying this of Safford: "as fine a player as he is"? Or was it saying that in my opinion, seconded by nescac1, Brian Ellis is far more deserving of being deemed the best Bobcat in recent memory. Please notice that I am singling out and singing the praises of another Bobcat. So how, exactly, is this grinding an axe with regards to Bates, as I'm being accused of?

I honestly intended no knock on Safford (thus the "as fine a player..."), but wanted to emphasize how good Brian Ellis was. Brian Ellis, who went to Bates.

Since my weeks-ago commentary on the Bates-Midd game, I've probably posted two dozen times, including an expression of gratitude to lumbercat for his classy post about my family. Not once have I had a negative thing to say about Bates. It seems like the only axe grinding or continued harping on a theme is coming from somewhere else.

If you really did not intend that comment to be a dig on Safford, fine, I'll let it go. My bad. Just suggesting maybe you chose your words more carefully, because if you asked Safford my gut says he wouldn't take the "pales in comparison" part to be particularly complimentary.

Old guy - check your PM in a few minutes

[TheHerst2and4]

Ray was Class of 2007.  Very, very hyped recruit, and lived up to it from day 1.  Really quick with the ball, and nasty defender; if he had played for Amherst or Williams would have been a LOT more acclaimed ... really not far behind his contemporary Andrew Olson as a point guard:

http://athletics.bates.edu/sports/mbkb/2006-07/bios/zak_ray_1485.html

Not adding much to the discussion but just reinforcing the praise of Zak. He was one of those do-it-all point guards who could take you off the dribble, drill a three in your face, and had the vision to drop some nice assists. My favorite thing about going against him was how competitive he was. He played the game hard and played it the right way. Definitely would have starred at any other NESCAC school and probably just a few inches short and a larger high school market away from getting some higher level looks.

[booyakasha]

Ray was Class of 2007.  Very, very hyped recruit, and lived up to it from day 1.  Really quick with the ball, and nasty defender; if he had played for Amherst or Williams would have been a LOT more acclaimed ... really not far behind his contemporary Andrew Olson as a point guard:

http://athletics.bates.edu/sports/mbkb/2006-07/bios/zak_ray_1485.html

Not adding much to the discussion but just reinforcing the praise of Zak. He was one of those do-it-all point guards who could take you off the dribble, drill a three in your face, and had the vision to drop some nice assists. My favorite thing about going against him was how competitive he was. He played the game hard and played it the right way. Definitely would have starred at any other NESCAC school and probably just a few inches short and a larger high school market away from getting some higher level looks.

I concur. I think you could have swapped him in for Olson and achieved the same success. He was probably slightly less capable offensively than Andrew, but would make up for it on the defensive end.

[AmherstStudent05]

Bryan Wholey is another name that should be mentioned as long as we are talking about great Bobcat guards of recent vintage.  He always seemed to be a real pest.

Sorry, booyakasha, have to STRONGLY disagree with your claim about Ray and Olson.  Ray was a nice player, for sure, but Olson was just on another level.  Of course, we can never know for sure what would have happened if Ray and Olson swapped places (though Ray was a year older), but I think it is safe to say that one national championship, 3 final fours, four regular season nescac titles and two nescac tourney titles would be tough to replicate.

Speaking of underachieving teams, it always amazes me that that Bates 2007 team with Ray and Stockwell could finish no better than 8th in the conference.  That has to be the most formidable 8 seed in the history of the tournament.  They very nearly knocked us off as well.  TheHerst2and4 played a SIGNIFICANT role in thwarting that upset bid.  Of course, maybe it might have been better had we dropped that game.  We were a stone-cold lock for the NCAAs that year and a loss could have spared me the most disappointing/upsetting loss I have endured as an Amherst fan (thank you, Chris Shalvoy).  Oh well.

Old Guy, I have already posted on this postponement issue and I really don't have much more to say, but I still don't see how Bates could be faulted in the least for not agreeing to a postponement.  Again, I have none of the facts, but postponements for another team's illness just doesn't seem to be done.  Is there really any precedent for it?  And, as I posted at the time, I just don't know what objective standard we could come up with that would be workable.  Teams are less than 100% all the time.  At what point should that counsel in favor of some extra time?  We might never have any games played as scheduled.  Also, it is, frankly, hard for me to accept that Midd was that incapacitated since they very nearly won the game!  Maybe that is punishing the Panthers for their skill, grit, and perseverance, but I don't see any other way to look at it.  Finally, would one day have even made a difference?  Many Midd players were apparently still under the weather against the Jumbos on Sunday.  While Midd's untimely bout of illness was surely unfortunate, I see absolutely nothing wrong with how Bates handled itself in this matter. 

[amh63]

 Interesting discussion wrt to Zack Ray.  However the last post concerning Ray for Olsen is a long, long jump wrt praise, imo.  Watched the Olsen led teams many times in conference battles and OOC games..live too.  Olsen was National POY twice!  Ray may have won Def. POY in the conference...great.  Olsen did not have to focus on that area, imo since he had a bunch of stoppers behind him!

[madzillagd]

Agree with A05 on the game delay.  It's a nice concept but impossible to implement any type of change like that.  When there is a tragic event of some sort or weather issues we will often see a schedule change, but when it comes to injury or illness it's just too hard to determine where to draw the line.  We have to keep in mind that in not only impacts the NESCAC but it impacts every single team in the Northeast region. What happens if the determining factor between Midd making the tournament and another team making the tournament was a single game?

[MENESCACFAN]

Not the greatest comparison amh63 to use national POY.  If you switch the two, the player on the winning team (Amherst) is in the discussion for those awards, while the other isn't.  Fair assumption that if Olson went to Bates, he is not a 2 time national POY playing at the exact same level.

[MENESCACFAN]

Fully agree with Madzilla on the game.  What is to stop every coach trying to move games due to players being sick?  It could be the whole team, it could be 2-3 starters.  We would never know the truth and it would be a horrendous precedent to set.