MBB: NESCAC

[Bucket]

"Disappointing" is the word for the Middlebury venture into Maine this weekend, losing to Colby (without their key player) and getting crushed by  Bowdoin, even with a day of rest.

On offense Mid's approach this season (given the attributes of the players) appears to be pushing the ball up the court quickly and relying on individual skills to score points. That "system"can prove fragile when opponents get back on defense and limit key players defensively, as at Williams where no starting Panthers scored in double digits. Against weaker opponents and on good shooting nights, Mid can appear dominant.

Naturally, inconsistency can result when those favorable circumstances are not present. Other "systems" that rely on traditional point guard floor leadership and team play with disciplined spacing, screens, and cuts may produce more productive results over the course of a season, particularly, if the "helter-skelter" offensive tone seeps into individual and collective defensive performance.

Not being critical ...Coach Brown certainly knows what's best ....Just thoughts for Panther fans based on seeing several Mid games....

I think that's a pretty astute and fair assessment, jump shot.

[Bucket]

Been in the Wash.& Lee and Roanoke D3 facilities...during my travels.

Regarding W&L: Picturesque school, nice facility, empty stands......

Exactly. Except when the Generals are playing Roanoke. Then the Warner Center is jumping. Or at least that used to be the case.

With a DI school (VMI) in town, W&L will never get the local support that most NESCAC schools enjoy--the outlier in this regard is Amherst; W&L is more like Tufts and Trinity in terms of local fandom. But student apathy is another matter.

[Bucket]

I actually think Bowdoin is definitely in too.  I had thought that they could get stuck in a three-way tie at 5-5 with Wes and Midd (which, while I am not sure on tiebreaks, I believe would have to be resolved by coin flip), but I think that can only happen if Williams goes 4-6 or 5-5.  I think if either Williams or Colby joins Bowdoin, Midd and Wes at 5-5 the Bears are safe.

Tufts could actually be safe too for similar reasons.

In the case of ties involving 3 or more teams, the first tiebreaker is their records against each other and the next is their records against the top 4 teams. There are several other tests that would be applied in sequence, with the coin flip happening only if the tie cannot be broken under any of the other criteria. If there were a 3-way tie among Wes, Bowdoin, and Middlebury, their records against each other are 1-1 so you would look at their records against the top 4 teams (including teams that may tie for 4th place) -- since we don't know who those top 4 teams are, it is too early to try to apply the second criteria (and the other criteria after that).

Many thanks, quicksilver. This is very helpful.  Could I possibly trouble you to help me through the following scenario: Bowdoin, Williams, Midd and Wesleyan all end the season tied for 6th with records of 5-5.  Bowdoin would have a record of 2-1 against the other three teams.  So would Wesleyan.  Williams and Midd would each have a record of 1-2.

How would this play out? Do Bowdoin and Wes each "advance" while Williams and Midd are then left behind.  And, if so do you then revert back to head-to-head tiebreaks to break the resulting ties between Bowdoin-Wes and Williams-Midd?  Therefore, would this scenario shakeout: 6. Wes, 7. Bow, 8. Wil, 9. Midd? Or do you just have to look at how they each fared against the top four teams (whoever they may end up being)?

and what if we had a scenario where Colby is also 5-5 (Splitting the Bates-Tufts weekend).  Teams 5-9 with the exact same record, one staying home. It can happen, though I think it's unlikely.

[7express]

I've ventured to a couple NESCAC gymnasiums:

I been to LeFrak at Amherst a bunch of times including once for a game vs. Williams; Western Connecticut plays Trinity & Conn College yearly so I've been there, was up to Wesleyan, and I went to a game @ Bowdoin the night before Western was playing @ Southern Maine.  I liked LeFrak & Bowdoin the best with Wesleyan right up there with those 2.

[ronk]

Never question the possibility of Bates hosting a semi-final CAC game.  With the possibility of hosting the CAC tourny...Bates' gym with a posted capacity of 750 becomes questionable.  Tufts' renovated gym has a posted capacity of 1000.  Also, parking is a problem. Got the feeling that on the men's side, the NCAA takes into consideration all aspects when a site has to host a 4 team tourny.
I have been to all CAC venues south of the Mass line.  Been to the Hamilton site.
Conn College site is small and does not have the " Hoosier" charm of the Bates gym. 
Been to the gym at Rochester but remember Old Guy posted that he felt the wall behind the basket was questionable close...even when padded...for players crashing into. 
Been in the Wash.& Lee and Roanoke D3 facilities...during my travels. 
Been watching the Midd vs Bowdoin game.  Bowdoin is hitting on all cylinders this afternoon....hard to beat when Swords, Hurley, and others are playing well...especially Hausman!  Sinnickson trying to keep up but not enough Panther supporters, imo.

. To host first-round, second-round or sectional contests, a
regulation court as defined in the 2013-14 and 2014-15 NCAA Men's Basketball Rules and Interpretations must be used. To
host sectional competition, arena seating for at least 1,000 spectators is required.

[amh63]

Bucket....you got me! .  Meant to type...first round...thinking the Nescac tournament...with the NCAA regional site swirling about in the area in the back of my head. Confused myself!  Part of my thinking is due to the confusing options with respect to possible seeding of the last four teams to the CAC dance.  I believe that the eventual 8th seed...unknown now...is capable of beating Trinity... the Top Seed.  Maybe  a somewhat  disrespectful thought to a team that crushed Amherst in LeFrak.
Anyway, as a result, Bates maybe the site for the Semi-finals.  Boy will tickets be hard to obtain.
Jumping too far ahead with one weekend of games ahead.  Amherst needs to play well up in Vermont.

[nescac1]

Not disrespectful at all, amh63.  I think that any team 1-8 will be able to beat any other -- it's just that kind of year in NESCAC, where the margin for error is very thin -- lots of solid teams, no great ones, and a lot will depend on match-ups.  Home court will certainly help, but in the end, whether you play at Trinity, at Bates, at Tufts, at Amherst, at Bowdoin, at Williams (the six teams likely to earn first-round hosting rights), I really don't see much of a difference.  I think Colby, if they make it in, will probably be the weakest team in the field just because so much depended on Hudnut.  But as they showed vs. Middlebury this weekend, they are still capable of playing well. 

[AmherstStudent05]

I actually think Bowdoin is definitely in too.  I had thought that they could get stuck in a three-way tie at 5-5 with Wes and Midd (which, while I am not sure on tiebreaks, I believe would have to be resolved by coin flip), but I think that can only happen if Williams goes 4-6 or 5-5.  I think if either Williams or Colby joins Bowdoin, Midd and Wes at 5-5 the Bears are safe.

Tufts could actually be safe too for similar reasons.

I think there is also a scenario where teams 2-7 are all tied at 6-4 (in that scenario, Midd is the 8 seed at either 4-6 or 5-5).
In the case of ties involving 3 or more teams, the first tiebreaker is their records against each other and the next is their records against the top 4 teams. There are several other tests that would be applied in sequence, with the coin flip happening only if the tie cannot be broken under any of the other criteria. If there were a 3-way tie among Wes, Bowdoin, and Middlebury, their records against each other are 1-1 so you would look at their records against the top 4 teams (including teams that may tie for 4th place) -- since we don't know who those top 4 teams are, it is too early to try to apply the second criteria (and the other criteria after that).

Many thanks, quicksilver. This is very helpful.  Could I possibly trouble you to help me through the following scenario: Bowdoin, Williams, Midd and Wesleyan all end the season tied for 6th with records of 5-5.  Bowdoin would have a record of 2-1 against the other three teams.  So would Wesleyan.  Williams and Midd would each have a record of 1-2.

How would this play out? Do Bowdoin and Wes each "advance" while Williams and Midd are then left behind.  And, if so do you then revert back to head-to-head tiebreaks to break the resulting ties between Bowdoin-Wes and Williams-Midd?  Therefore, would this scenario shakeout: 6. Wes, 7. Bow, 8. Wil, 9. Midd? Or do you just have to look at how they each fared against the top four teams (whoever they may end up being)?

and what if we had a scenario where Colby is also 5-5 (Splitting the Bates-Tufts weekend).  Teams 5-9 with the exact same record, one staying home. It can happen, though I think it's unlikely.

[AmherstStudent05]

Not quite sure what I did with my last post.  Sorry about that.  What I meant to reply to Bucket was: "I think there is also a scenario where teams 2-7 are all tied at 6-4 (in that scenario, Midd is the 8 seed at either 4-6 or 5-5)."

[nescacobserver]

What is the schedule for the Nescac tournament?  First games on Saturday, Feb 21st, semi-finals on Saturday, Feb 28th, and then final on Sunday, March 1st?

[toad22]

I want to add my positive feelings toward the atmosphere at the Bates gym. I really enjoyed the experience on Friday night up until the last minute or so! Bates is a good team, but like nearly every team in the league, a team that can be beaten by most other NESCAC teams with solid play. Tufts was more enjoyable from a W-L perspective, but not quite as good a venue as Bates. The Ephs are in the unenviable position of needing a really solid game out of both Daniel Wohl and Hayden Rooke-Ley in order to win most league games. If either guy has just a so-so game, the games become nail biters. I would not want to need to make a bet on the outcome of the regular season, or the tournament.

[7express]

What is the schedule for the Nescac tournament?  First games on Saturday, Feb 21st, semi-finals on Saturday, Feb 28th, and then final on Sunday, March 1st?

That sounds about right.

[CatCountry2013]

I want to add my positive feelings toward the atmosphere at the Bates gym. I really enjoyed the experience on Friday night up until the last minute or so! Bates is a good team, but like nearly every team in the league, a team that can be beaten by most other NESCAC teams with solid play. Tufts was more enjoyable from a W-L perspective, but not quite as good a venue as Bates. The Ephs are in the unenviable position of needing a really solid game out of both Daniel Wohl and Hayden Rooke-Ley in order to win most league games. If either guy has just a so-so game, the games become nail biters. I would not want to need to make a bet on the outcome of the regular season, or the tournament.

I'm not sure if the crowd is better because the team is better or vice versa but Alumni Gym has been rocking this year. Glad you had a good time despite the tough loss.

[amh63]

i want to point out here that 7Express maybe bias a little towards LeFrak.  I was there with him at the Williams game...when the Fire. Marshall allowed student to sit on the floor...Amherst side.  7express was sitting on the first row with at least a half a dozen coeds " sitting at his feet" on the floor.
My wife needs a break!....therefore we will be in Florida for the next couple of weekends. Let the CAC seedings work itself out.  Maybe, just maybe the CAC title game site will allow me to fly up to NE for live games!

[NothingButNESCAC]

A task well-suited to a NESCAC undergrad, which I anticipate we will certainly see from Nothing But NESCAC: a full breakdown of all the playoff possibilities at stake in the last weekend of play.  Trinity has the one seed locked down, Conn is out and Hamilton is either out or almost surely out.  Seems like it comes down to, most likely, Wesleyan or Midd for the 8th seed.  2-7 are a morass, however ... especially critical are those Bates and Tufts v. Bowdoin and Colby games.  I know from a Williams perspective that I want Williams and Bates both to sweep, Colby to beat Tufts, Tufts to beat Bowdoin, and Midd to beat Amherst.  (I think ....).

Honestly, I spent about an hour trying to figure out a way of showing every conceivable possibility but there is no way to do it without doing a full blown essay on it. There are so many different games that will have far reaching effects depending on how every other game turns out that it is somewhat a fruitless exercise. Some of the intricacies have already been discussed here of course. Just as an example, here is a look at Colby.

If the Mules lose both of their games and both Wesleyan and Middlebury go 2-0 then the Mules are out because they lose the head to head tiebreaker against Williams so the Ephs could lose to Conn College and Wesleyan and still make it. If Colby loses both games, Wesleyan goes 2-0, Middlebury goes 1-1, and the Ephs go 0-2 then Midd, Williams, and Colby are tied for 7,8,9. The three went 1-1 against each other so it goes to the best record against the top 4 teams which we have no way of knowing at this point. If Colby loses both games, Wesleyan goes 2-0, Middlebury goes 1-1, and the Ephs beat Conn then the Mules get in by virtue of the head to head victory over Middlebury. If Colby loses both games, Wesleyan goes 1-1, Middlebury goes 2-0, and the Ephs go 0-2 (Wesleyan beats Williams in this hypothetical), it would be a three way tie between Williams, Wesleyan, and Colby with all three going 1-1 against each other so you go to the same top 4 records tiebreaker. If Colby loses both games, Wesleyan goes 1-1 (Williams beats them) and Midd goes 2-0 then the Mules get in because they win the head to head tie-breaker over Wesleyan. If Colby loses both, Wesleyan goes 1-1 (Williams beats them), and Midd goes 1-1 then Colby, Wesleyan, and Midd are tied but Colby gets in because they beat both Wesleyan and Midd head to head.

That is only looking at when Colby loses both games and doesn't start to get into if Colby wins one of their games which is when crazy things start to happen. I thought about making charts of every possibility for every team but I have to do Greek homework too you know? Sorry to disappoint.