MBB: NESCAC

[toad22]

Williams is the "lone wolf" for the next two years. It sure makes it tough on parents and crazy fans like me who travel to most every game. I'm sure it will also make a difference to the players. Next year, Williams will probably be half first year players, so they won't know anything else. With 11 teams in the league, I'm not likely to witness Williams as the "odd man out" again in my lifetime! What a dumb arrangement!

[polbear73]

It is a dumb arrangement and one of several when it comes to basketball scheduling.  Most of it comes from having an uneven number of basketball playing schools.  The "lone wolf" arrangement, the playing of one game series changing home and home every year, and some schools having more away games (Trinity and Wesleyan this year) all combine to create an inequitable schedule to the point of questioning the integrity of regular season standings and, therefore, seedings for the tournament.  I think we'd all agree that both would look different with an in-season home and home arrangement (whole league or divisional) and more fair travel arrangements. 

[AmherstStudent05]

AmherstStudent05, I agree completely that it is a very close three-man race right now between Wohl, Hausman and Green for POY ... Green's deep shot is the single most unstoppable weapon in the conference, and Hausman is the single most unstoppable overall offensive force.  Wohl has tailed off a bit of late in terms of his shooting, but still carries the Eph offense on his back along with Hayden, and he is also a much stronger defensive player, rebounder, and distributor than the other two guys.  Since he is the most complete two-way player, I'd give him a slight edge, although Hausman's total dominance on offense, along with team success, makes it a very close call between those two guys.  Green's tough start to the season matters -- if ONLY conference play counted, I think he would have a stronger case, but I do think (and correct me if I'm wrong) that non-NESCAC games also matter.   I'd say at this point that if one of the three leads their team to a strong run in the NESCAC tourney and stands out from the other two as an individual, they deserve the award. 

We differ, however, quite a bit on the other awards.  Again, it seems you are looking ONLY at conference play, but I do think non-NESCAC games matter, especially when the majority of the schedule is spent playing non-NESCAC teams.  By that metric, the candidacies of Palleschi, Jann, Smith and Davis all suffer quite a bit.  Jann and Smith I find especially odd choices -- both are fairly one-dimensional players (scorers), are not dominant in that dimension, and both did very little outside of conference play.  Smith I think was sent to the bench because he had such a rough first half of the season -- he reinvented himself as an effective offensive spark plug off the bench, but that doesn't make him an all-NESCAC player.

Hayden Rooke-Ley, Luke Westman, and Joseph Lin all posted much stronger seasons in my view, doing far more for their teams than Jann or Smith.  I realize Hayden missed a few games, but he, in particular, is a much better and much more productive player than either Jann or Smith at this point in their careers.  Lin got injured late in the year, but had some really dominating performances before he got hurt.  Sinnickson is another guy who tailed off late, but his entire body of work warrants a spot on at least the second team, for sure.  Finally, John Swords is such an imposing presence on defense, and so critical to Bowdoin's team success, that he has to be recognized even if his scoring was down (still a very efficient scorer, and underrated passer who opens things up for teammates by attracting a TON of attention in the post every play). 

It is really tough to pick all-NESCAC teams outside of the top three since Hudnut and Sabety, both of whom would have been first-team locks, suffered season-ending injuries, and Lin and Hayden, both of whom might otherwise have been first-team guys, suffered injuries, thinning out the pool. 

I'll go with:

First team: Hausman, Wohl, Green, Starks (agreed that Trinity's team success needs to be recognized), Safford
Second team: Palleschi, Westman, Lin, Sinnickson, Swords

Also worthy of consideration (and my third team): Boornazian, Kuo, Davis, St. Amour, Pavlin

Very, very close call between Cosgrove and Gilbride for COY.  If either team wins the NESCAC tourney, that coach should win the award.  Both are highly-deserving.  Johnny McCarthy has also tailed off late in the year, but there is no other strong candidate for ROY, so he takes it by default -- not a good year at all (relative to the recent pass, in particular) for NESCAC first-year players.

It wouldn't surprise me, actually, if coaches only considered Conference play when making their All-Conference selections, but I have no idea.  Again, it would be nice if the criteria were publicly available.  Personally, in making my choices, I weighted conference play very very highly and used non-conference play as a sort of plus factor.  I think the quality of non-conference opponents is just too divergent to be terribly useful.  I think that difference explains much of our disagreement about all-conference selections.

As for Connor Green, I would be one of the first to concede that during his first two years he could be a real liability on the defensive end.  But, it seems to me that he has worked very hard at improving his intensity/focus on that end this season.  I am curious, do any Midd posters recall if he was matched up against Sinnickson on Sunday?

One point I did not make yesterday.  With Hudnut and Sabety out, the crop of big men has really thinned out.  There is, of course, no rule that a post player be selected to the First Team, but I think Palleschi's candidacy will be helped by this void.

What I like about Ryan Jann is that he is the one (Colby posters correct me if I am wrong) who really seems to have stepped up his game the most to fill the void left by Hudnut's unfortunate injury.  He scores, rebounds, distributes (and turns the ball over).

Fair point about Swords doing more on both offense and defense than is captured by the box score.  Unfortunately, of course, as most NESCAC games conflict with Amherst games, I usually only have box scores to go on along with the one Amherst game itself.  Swords was largely a complete non-factor in the Amherst game (12 points, no blocks), which reinforced my view that, for whatever reason, he can disappear in games for large stretches of time.  But the Amherst game could well have been an aberration -- coming off a tough overtime loss to Trinity.

You are certainly right that stat sheets don't capture everything.  But I am sure that there are plenty of players for whom the stat sheets don't do them justice.  That is why it is so nice to hear from a cross section of posters who provide the color and context that box scores don't always capture.  That is also why I regret that we don't have more active Bantam posters here this year, because that certainly looks like a team with players doing more than a simple stat sheet would suggest.

[Bucket]

AmherstStudent05, I agree completely that it is a very close three-man race right now between Wohl, Hausman and Green for POY ... Green's deep shot is the single most unstoppable weapon in the conference, and Hausman is the single most unstoppable overall offensive force.  Wohl has tailed off a bit of late in terms of his shooting, but still carries the Eph offense on his back along with Hayden, and he is also a much stronger defensive player, rebounder, and distributor than the other two guys.  Since he is the most complete two-way player, I'd give him a slight edge, although Hausman's total dominance on offense, along with team success, makes it a very close call between those two guys.  Green's tough start to the season matters -- if ONLY conference play counted, I think he would have a stronger case, but I do think (and correct me if I'm wrong) that non-NESCAC games also matter.   I'd say at this point that if one of the three leads their team to a strong run in the NESCAC tourney and stands out from the other two as an individual, they deserve the award. 

We differ, however, quite a bit on the other awards.  Again, it seems you are looking ONLY at conference play, but I do think non-NESCAC games matter, especially when the majority of the schedule is spent playing non-NESCAC teams.  By that metric, the candidacies of Palleschi, Jann, Smith and Davis all suffer quite a bit.  Jann and Smith I find especially odd choices -- both are fairly one-dimensional players (scorers), are not dominant in that dimension, and both did very little outside of conference play.  Smith I think was sent to the bench because he had such a rough first half of the season -- he reinvented himself as an effective offensive spark plug off the bench, but that doesn't make him an all-NESCAC player.

Hayden Rooke-Ley, Luke Westman, and Joseph Lin all posted much stronger seasons in my view, doing far more for their teams than Jann or Smith.  I realize Hayden missed a few games, but he, in particular, is a much better and much more productive player than either Jann or Smith at this point in their careers.  Lin got injured late in the year, but had some really dominating performances before he got hurt.  Sinnickson is another guy who tailed off late, but his entire body of work warrants a spot on at least the second team, for sure.  Finally, John Swords is such an imposing presence on defense, and so critical to Bowdoin's team success, that he has to be recognized even if his scoring was down (still a very efficient scorer, and underrated passer who opens things up for teammates by attracting a TON of attention in the post every play). 

It is really tough to pick all-NESCAC teams outside of the top three since Hudnut and Sabety, both of whom would have been first-team locks, suffered season-ending injuries, and Lin and Hayden, both of whom might otherwise have been first-team guys, suffered injuries, thinning out the pool. 

I'll go with:

First team: Hausman, Wohl, Green, Starks (agreed that Trinity's team success needs to be recognized), Safford
Second team: Palleschi, Westman, Lin, Sinnickson, Swords

Also worthy of consideration (and my third team): Boornazian, Kuo, Davis, St. Amour, Pavlin

Very, very close call between Cosgrove and Gilbride for COY.  If either team wins the NESCAC tourney, that coach should win the award.  Both are highly-deserving.  Johnny McCarthy has also tailed off late in the year, but there is no other strong candidate for ROY, so he takes it by default -- not a good year at all (relative to the recent pass, in particular) for NESCAC first-year players.

It wouldn't surprise me, actually, if coaches only considered Conference play when making their All-Conference selections, but I have no idea.  Again, it would be nice if the criteria were publicly available.  Personally, in making my choices, I weighted conference play very very highly and used non-conference play as a sort of plus factor.  I think the quality of non-conference opponents is just too divergent to be terribly useful.  I think that difference explains much of our disagreement about all-conference selections.

As for Connor Green, I would be one of the first to concede that during his first two years he could be a real liability on the defensive end.  But, it seems to me that he has worked very hard at improving his intensity/focus on that end this season.  I am curious, do any Midd posters recall if he was matched up against Sinnickson on Sunday?

One point I did not make yesterday.  With Hudnut and Sabety out, the crop of big men has really thinned out.  There is, of course, no rule that a post player be selected to the First Team, but I think Palleschi's candidacy will be helped by this void.

What I like about Ryan Jann is that he is the one (Colby posters correct me if I am wrong) who really seems to have stepped up his game the most to fill the void left by Hudnut's unfortunate injury.  He scores, rebounds, distributes (and turns the ball over).

Fair point about Swords doing more on both offense and defense than is captured by the box score.  Unfortunately, of course, as most NESCAC games conflict with Amherst games, I usually only have box scores to go on along with the one Amherst game itself.  Swords was largely a complete non-factor in the Amherst game (12 points, no blocks), which reinforced my view that, for whatever reason, he can disappear in games for large stretches of time.  But the Amherst game could well have been an aberration -- coming off a tough overtime loss to Trinity.

You are certainly right that stat sheets don't capture everything.  But I am sure that there are plenty of players for whom the stat sheets don't do them justice.  That is why it is so nice to hear from a cross section of posters who provide the color and context that box scores don't always capture.  That is also why I regret that we don't have more active Bantam posters here this year, because that certainly looks like a team with players doing more than a simple stat sheet would suggest.

Connor was matched up with Merryman for most of the game; I don't recall if he ever guarded Sinnickson.

Merryman had a big offensive day, but I certainly noticed that Green's defense had improved.

[AmherstStudent05]

Many thanks, Bucket.  I also realize that I may not have been as clear as I intended in my last post.  I am not saying that Green is all of a sudden a lock down defender or anything even resembling that -- just that he has come a LONG way this season from where he was the first half of his career (still a long ways to go).  Fortunately, this extra effort on the defensive end does not seem to have impeded his three-point game at all!

One final thought.  Obviously, the best way to observe basketball games is to be there in person.  Even as much as the webcasts have improved over the years (and they certainly have despite my occasional complaints), there is still a lot that you really have to be there for (which, again, is why this board can so often supply valuable context).  Next is the webcasts themselves, of course.  But, is it just me, or is there also some value in following the live stats live?  In theory, there shouldn't be any difference between me reading the live stats live or looking at the play by play from the box score months later.  But, for some reason, I just don't get quite the same feel from the box score after the fact as I do from just following the live stats of a game in real time.  Curious if others feel the same way or if that is just me.

[7express]

It is a dumb arrangement and one of several when it comes to basketball scheduling.  Most of it comes from having an uneven number of basketball playing schools.  The "lone wolf" arrangement, the playing of one game series changing home and home every year, and some schools having more away games (Trinity and Wesleyan this year) all combine to create an inequitable schedule to the point of questioning the integrity of regular season standings and, therefore, seedings for the tournament.  I think we'd all agree that both would look different with an in-season home and home arrangement (whole league or divisional) and more fair travel arrangements.

That's why the NESCAC needs to pick up a school in New York (Vassar, Union, Skidmore, Bard, etc) and create two 6 team divisions.  Pair the rivalry's up (i.e Amherst, Williams, Wesleyan in 1 division; the Maine schools in the other).  You have a home-and home within your division (10 games, which is why keeping the main double season rivalries together)  6 games against the other division (half home and road)  so that's 16 conference games; 8 home 8 road.  Even with the 24 game minimum for the CASCAC, 8 games should be enough to fill out a decent OOC schedule.

Nobody's the odd team out, and you don't have a discrepancy between home & road (like Trinity & Tufts playing 6 road games and only 4 home games and Bates playing 6 home games compared to only 4 road games).

[JustAFan]

Additional NESCAC commitments for Conn, Tufts and Bates:

http://www.newenglandrecruitingreport.com/news/article/3845/Commitment-CatchUp.php

[gordonmann]

Union was in the NESCAC for a while and had to leave because they have Division I hockey. I'd think Vassar or Skidmore would be comfortable in the NESCAC, but no idea if there's any interest on either side.

[jumpshot]

7express--
Your solution has been advocated for some time as a way of enhancing Mid's "standing" and dealing in part with the Panthers' weak annual schedule....

[polbear73]

Union was in the NESCAC for a while and had to leave because they have Division I hockey. I'd think Vassar or Skidmore would be comfortable in the NESCAC, but no idea if there's any interest on either side.

Actually Union was playing Division 3 hockey at the time and was dealing with Ned Harkness and recruiting violations, going to Division 1 after leaving NESCAC.  Skidmore and Vasser would be good choices in that they're not football schools (a popular topic on that Board is the addition of a 9th game), would make the cut academically, and would fit geographically. 

[grabtherim]

Let's table adding another team until Williams and Amherst have had the pleasure of the lone wolf Friday Sunday schedules.  Seriously, I think Skidmore makes sense if they are into it. 

[nescac1]

I think MIT would be an awesome fit -- a bit more of a university than most NESCAC schools, but Tufts is roughly in the same category.  Perfect fit geographically, obviously would enhance the conference's academic reputation, and also a great fit athletically since MIT, like many NESCAC schools, is successful in a very wide array of sports, many of them on the obscure side.  I'm not sure they would want to have so much extra travel relative to the relatively geographically-constrained NEWMAC, but if NESCAC ever were to expand, MIT would be the first school I'd go after. 

[polbear73]

I think MIT would be an awesome fit -- a bit more of a university than most NESCAC schools, but Tufts is roughly in the same category.  Perfect fit geographically, obviously would enhance the conference's academic reputation, and also a great fit athletically since MIT, like many NESCAC schools, is successful in a very wide array of sports, many of them on the obscure side.  I'm not sure they would want to have so much extra travel relative to the relatively geographically-constrained NEWMAC, but if NESCAC ever were to expand, MIT would be the first school I'd go after.

So would I. A much better overall fit but really doesn't help with travel issues.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

At what point will Holy Cross give up on D1 athletics?  That's got to be coming soon, right?

[nescacobserver]

Why would anyone ever want to come back for a fifth year just to play D3 basketball, especially at 60k a year?  Maybe Sinnickson isn't paying full tuition, I'm not sure, but if I were his parents I'd be telling him to take that Middlebury degree and go find a job!

And what D1 sport are you referring to for his other 5th year option?  It's not basketball, right?  Must be baseball.