MBB: NESCAC

[amh63]

Wow, the turn of topics on this board when meaningful games are days ahead
With respect to DK, aka Sinnickson...his choice of going to a D1 school to play a sport as well as pursuing a graduate degree should be his.  I believe he has basketball talent to play at the UVM....though with his talents in baseball...maybe the pros.  It seems there was a Panther grad that went to a Div 1 school that played Div1 football that led to a NFL career.
With the question of adding a school like MIT to eliminate scheduling disparity in basketball may introduce difficulty elsewhere.   MIT has a football team....therefore would this bring on a 10 game football season! . 
By the way...saw MIT play a game....their players seem a little slow.  MIT players are known to drop off the team due to school work loads.  Think about the discussions that factor will generate.

[P'bearfan]

Fair point about Swords doing more on both offense and defense than is captured by the box score.  Unfortunately, of course, as most NESCAC games conflict with Amherst games, I usually only have box scores to go on along with the one Amherst game itself.  Swords was largely a complete non-factor in the Amherst game (12 points, no blocks), which reinforced my view that, for whatever reason, he can disappear in games for large stretches of time.  But the Amherst game could well have been an aberration -- coming off a tough overtime loss to Trinity.

Keep in mind that Swords played 41 minutes against Trinity the night before the Amherst game (Bowdoin lost to Trinity by 1 point in OT).  Bowdoin had a total of 4 players who logged more than 36 minutes in that game.  There was very little gas in the tank when they faced Amherst the next day - especially in Swords' case.

[Bucket]

Why would anyone ever want to come back for a fifth year just to play D3 basketball, especially at 60k a year?  Maybe Sinnickson isn't paying full tuition, I'm not sure, but if I were his parents I'd be telling him to take that Middlebury degree and go find a job!

And what D1 sport are you referring to for his other 5th year option?  It's not basketball, right?  Must be baseball.

The fifth-year DI option would be for basketball at the Patriot League/American East level (Not A-10 like Matt Hart at GW or Big Ten like Duncan Robinson at Michigan). That's not a stretch by any means.

And who would go back to a DIII school for an extra year to "just" play basketball? Ask Hayden Rooke-Ley. He just did it at Williams. He was originally in the Mayer-Epley class, but sat out the entirety of his junior year with a back injury.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Why would anyone ever want to come back for a fifth year just to play D3 basketball, especially at 60k a year?  Maybe Sinnickson isn't paying full tuition, I'm not sure, but if I were his parents I'd be telling him to take that Middlebury degree and go find a job!

And what D1 sport are you referring to for his other 5th year option?  It's not basketball, right?  Must be baseball.

The fifth-year DI option would be for basketball at the Patriot League/American East level (Not A-10 like Matt Hart at GW or Big Ten like Duncan Robinson at Michigan). That's not a stretch by any means.

And who would go back to a DIII school for an extra year to "just" play basketball? Ask Hayden Rooke-Ley. He just did it at Williams. He was originally in the Mayer-Epley class, but sat out the entirety of his junior year with a back injury.

Maybe the Marist coach has a spot open for him?

[nescac1]

And Bucket, Hayden is hardly alone.  Ed Flynn would have been a senior this year, but took last year off after suffering an injury and will get a chance to make a more significant impact on the court next season.  Ray Barry at Amherst is in the same boat.  Tom Palleschi is listed as a Sophomore, so I am guessing he took an academic year off as well.  Loads of other guys have been in the same boat, over the years, and many, many more have done it with football (where it is much easier, since you need only take one semester off, then come back and graduate after a fifth fall).  In the aggregate, NESCAC football rosters are replete with fifth-year seniors who missed a year due to injury. 

[AmherstStudent05]

I think the question with the "extra eligibility" issue is whether the player (Sinnickson or whoever) has completed his academic studies.  I am pretty sure that whenever this has happened at Amherst, the player has withdrawn from school the semester(s) he was sitting out due to injury.  That way, the student only has the same 8 tuition bills to pay (even if one or two are pushed back a year), so the economic burden really isn't that different.  In Amherst's case, such a solution is also necessitated by the fact that Amherst does not award graduate degrees of any kind, so there is no bang for your buck after the 8th semester (despite being a "College," I believe Williams may offer a graduate degree in limited fields and perhaps Middlebury does as well).  So, for instance, when Ray Corrigan took an extra "year" in 06, he really just took an extra semester (he did not play in the Fall, I believe).

Anyway, I am sure that Dylan and his family will make the decision that is best for them.  I wish them well (if only Amherst did have a graduate program we could entice him with!).

As for expanding the NESCAC, I am not sure I would mind adding a 12th team (though I don't love the idea either).  I agree that it would be nice if everyone had a travelling partner and I definitely agree that not having everyone play a 5/5 home/away split is very odd, but I would be strongly opposed to any subdivisions within the Conference.  Maybe my concerns are misplaced, but, for example, when I was a student, Middlebury wasn't on our radar screens at all as a possible basketball rival.  Obviously, these past 6-7 years, this has turned into an excellent rivalry.  Would it have been as intense if, in 2006, these two schools were placed in different subdivisions? Obviously, I don't know but I worry that a lot of the rivalry would have been harmed (of course, had Amherst, Williams, Midd all been in the same subdivision the past decade, the rivalries would have been even more intense, so I guess you just don't know). 

[jayhawk]

I have no idea about the importance of another year school for Sinnickson in terms of cost.
He is from Sands Point Long Island which is extremely nice area to live on Long Island
I believe the novel, the Great Gatsby talked about West and East egg which refer to Kings Point and Sands Point Long Island

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/01/nyregion/01gatsby.html?pagewanted=all

[nescacobserver]

In my humble opinion,  I think there are only four current players in the Nescac that have the combination of size, skill or athleticism to make a D1 roster and actually get some minutes.  They are Wohl, Green, Sabety and Hudnut. 

[Bucket]

In my humble opinion,  I think there are only four current players in the Nescac that have the combination of size, skill or athleticism to make a D1 roster and actually get some minutes.  They are Wohl, Green, Sabety and Hudnut.

I believe there is far less disparity between the best NESCAC players and mid-major DI players. Just look at Jayde Dawson: he got legit minutes at DI Fairleigh Dickinson and was not an instant impact NESCAC player at Amherst,backing up Reid Berman.

Sinnickson may very well be the most athletic player in the conference, or at least one of the top. And he has the size (6-5), and has developed the skill, to warrant minutes. Maybe not when he was 18, but certainly now.

Interested in another opinion, I posed this question to a friend who is a DI coach and is intimately familiar with the NESCAC: Could Dylan Sinnickson warrant playing time at the right DI school? His reply: "Absolutely."

[nescacobserver]

Interesting response from that D1 coach, bucket.  It's very hard to tell.  But I do still believe there is a large gap between D1 and D3 players, in terms of speed, body strength, athleticism.  Maybe not so much in skill level when looking at the more elite Nescac players, but they are the exception.  Not to mention Division 2.  Have you ever been to a Bentley, Stonehill, St. Anselms game?  Every time I go to one of those games, I think to myself "wow, these guys are much better than the D3 players I've seen".  I guess the natural progression in talent from D3 to D2 to D1 only makes sense, since it reflects the recruiting strategy of the coaches involved and who they're willing to throw full scholarships at.

[Bucket]

Interesting response from that D1 coach, bucket.  It's very hard to tell.  But I do still believe there is a large gap between D1 and D3 players, in terms of speed, body strength, athleticism.  Maybe not so much in skill level when looking at the more elite Nescac players, but they are the exception.  Not to mention Division 2.  Have you ever been to a Bentley, Stonehill, St. Anselms game?  Every time I go to one of those games, I think to myself "wow, these guys are much better than the D3 players I've seen".  I guess the natural progression in talent from D3 to D2 to D1 only makes sense, since it reflects the recruiting strategy of the coaches involved and who they're willing to throw full scholarships at.

True. Very hard. And I agree with your assessment of levels of play at DI, DII, DIII. The collection of talent/athleticism is the discrepancy. It's the insertion of one player into that dynamic, if that player has close to comparable skills, athleticism, and size, where it's possible. Still, it has to be the right fit, which is another dynamic that needs to be accounted for.

[Old Guy]

Middlebury does not offer any graduate programs stateside in Vermont. There are (summer grad programs in languages at Midd and in English at Bread Loaf (Midd's mountain campus), and also grad programs in California at the former Monterrey Institute (now the Middlebury Institute of International Studies at Monterrey). No Midd basketball teams in those programs.

When students stay an extra semester at Middlebury, it is because they have not finished their degree, which is an easy enough thing to control by delaying an academic (Major) requirement or two. Still they must take a full load (paying the full fare) and get permission from a faculty committee to extend beyond eight semesters. I believe if one is a full-time student in the fall semester, a full winter sport season is permissible by the NCAA.

Swords' value is not in his numbers. He is never a "non-factor" when he is on the floor. When Midd had Locke (a different player, to be sure), he affected the game by his mere presence - it's about what teams do not do that they normally would.

Without question the best team I saw play against Middlebury this year (I saw in person Bates, CT College, Wesleyan, Hamilton, Williams, Trinity, Amherst - and Tufts, Bowdoin, Colby on-line) was Williams. It was men against boys that night: Wms totally bottled us up defensively, shot the lights out, were led by Rooke-Ley and Wohl (who were nearly unstoppable) but had important contributions from others (very solid play at the point by Greenman, good shooting by Aronowitz and Teal, effective inside play by Kilcullen and Sime). They were terrific. You explain their lapses (Hamilton, other games).

I'll have to go with Trinity as the next best, though they certainly were vulnerable in the second half of our game, with maybe Bowdoin next. I suspect my impression of Amherst, and Wesleyan too (playing well now) would be different if I had another look.

[nescac1]

Next year, with Duncan Robinson, Matt Hart, and maybe Sinnickson all playing D1, we will have a pretty definitive answer regarding how NESCAC success translates to a D1 level.  Duncan is easily the most talented player I've seen in NESCAC, and it's not really close (Nogelo, Toomey would be the next two, but Duncan was at a whole different level from either as a first-year) -- so can the very best of NESCAC compete at the VERY top of D1?  I think yes, but we will see.  Hart would have been a contender for NESCAC player of the year his last two years had he stuck around -- so can an elite NESCAC player (but not historically good) compete at a high level D1 school?  And finally, can Sinnickson (if he does indeed go D1), a very good but not elite NESCAC player, compete at the lower level of D?  It will be fascinating to watch. 

Nice win for Williams tonight in a glorified scrimmage.  The starters went up about 30 before extended deep bench time.  Now, Castleton is not a good defensive team.  But, they do play a very similar system to Bowdoin (albeit with no interior size whatsoever, let alone a 7' monster anchoring the paint) so it was great for practice.  After a weekend playing tight, taking bad, deep threes early in the shot-clock, and missing the easy threes they did get, it was great to see Williams moving the ball beautifully -- really, really unselfish play, everyone was looking for teammates first -- and nailing open threes.  Also great to see Daniel Wohl and Hayden Rooke-Ley, who have carried the entire team on their backs this season, rebound from probably their worst respective games of the season on Saturday to post more typical stellar performances in their (almost certainly) final appearances in Chandler.  Combining for 40 points on only 19 FGA -- can't do much better than that!  Dan Aronowitz and Cole Teal also bounced back from rough Saturdays and both played well on both ends of the court tonight.  They will need to bring that same level of play on Saturday, because Hayden and Wohl can't do it alone, and when the supporting cast doesn't help out, that is when Williams starts to stagnate on offense to a dangerous degree.

One more note -- it was nice to see all three of next year's centers show some good flashes tonight.  All three guys need to improve, and none of them are superstars, but they are going to benefit from this year's experience as back-ups and I think will combine to give the Ephs 40 effective minutes next year as a very experienced three-headed monster, all with VERY different skill sets.  Ed Flynn, who benefited from going against a very small front-line tonight, had several of his characteristic pretty rolls to the basket.  He can catch and finish effectively on the move, which is a great skill for a 6'10 guy to have.  If he can get a bit stronger, and work on his board-work and on using his full frame to effect opposing centers on defense, he can be a solid starter for the Ephs next year -- you can't teach 6'10, after all, and again, he does have a nice inside touch and is a good passer to boot.  There is no reason he can't be a 10 ppg scorer as a senior.  Darrias Sime has an explosive first step and is a really smooth finisher inside.  He is always going to be undersized, but compensates in part with strength and speed.  He had issues this season turning the ball over and picking up too many quick fouls, and needs to learn when to be aggressive (his best asset) and when to pull it back just half-a-notch to avoid negative plays -- being a bull is a good, but not a bull in a china shop.  Finally, Lewis Hayes is easily the best athlete on the team, can do some eye-popping things on the court, but is still a work in progress as you'd expect from a two-sport guy playing his first year on the varsity.  He can be a huge asset, especially as a rebounder on both ends and an athletic finisher inside, if he can polish his ball-handling, shooting and knowledge of the offense.  We all know what Williams loses so it's guys like those three, plus all the guards we saw off the bench tonight,  who need to have big offseasons and prove that they can collectively help step into the massive void the three graduating seniors will leave. 

Speaking of Flynn, I really hope he gets at least 5-10 minutes vs. Swords on Saturday.  He is the ONLY guy on Williams who has any prayer of bothering his shot, and while Sime has played better and better as the season has gone along,  if you are giving up eight inches, there is only so much you can do ...

[jumpshot]

Nescac1,

No one to date comes close to Mike Nogelo as the best ever in NESCAC. Duncan Robinson had a tremendous first year with excellent teammates. Nogelo had four outstanding years, 2,000 points, averaged 20 points on only 20 shots, still holds the record for the most points in an NCAA tournament,
rebounded, hit numerous big shots, was awarded the first Jostens, dominated against many good teams in the conference as well as non-conference, etc. Duncan may ultimately prove to be as good; his journey is just underway ....

[nescac1]

Jumpshot, two different criteria.  Nogelo had the best NESCAC career in my view.  Duncan only played one year so isn't even in the discussion of "best ever" Nescac player.  But he is the most talented player I've ever seen in Nescac.  And I was on campus for three of Nogelo's four years.  He was incredible.  But Duncan as a frosh was better than Nogelo as a frosh and Duncan has a much higher ceiling.  He's taller, equally athletic, slightly quicker off the bounce, and is a better shooter (as good as Nogelo was in that dep't).  I mean Duncan broke the UMich shooting drill record already -- a school that has had some pretty damn good shooters over the years!  They each have crazy-good hoops instincts, the two best I've seen in Nescac along with Andrew Olson in that regard. I've never seen anyone as talented as Duncan come into Nescac and I doubt we ever will. Alas.  He wouid have scored 2500, easy, had he stayed healthy and stuck around.