MBB: NESCAC

[thunder32]

Formerbant,

Been a little while good to see you back mediating again.  Any word from you on Trinity. 

[nescac1]

Lots to comment on over the last week.  Nescac Fan, don't let the sudden, enormous explosion of idiotic, trash-talking Amherst fans on this board bait you into sinking to the level of class they display both in posts and at games.  On the one hand, they have a lot of pent up negative energy after years of Williams domination in big men's basketball games (including every single NCAA tournament game the two have ever played) in which somehow, every time Williams won, Amherst still thought it was the better team and acted like it; jealousy over the banner; and Williams' current domination in women's hoops, football, and US News, among other sports.  Hence all the constant trashing of Williams players, current and former, etc.  Just the fact that they take the time to create some sort of Crotty bobble head elf shows just how deep-seated this frustration runs.   I mean, it's Amherst fans who invoke Crotty, Coffin et. al. a lot more than Williams fans at this point, which speaks for itself.  Williams will be back eventually, and when that time comes, relish it.  Until then, let them embarass themselves by calling Williams players goons and constantly chanting "war" and making silly computer graphics.  But don't go and do stuff like attacking Schiel -- that's totally inappropriate.   Leave those sort of antics for Historian, Spengler, Friar T, etc. 

We as Williams fans just need to accept that right now, Amherst has the better program, they have for three years, and they will at least through next year with the talent they have in the Junior class, which must be the best in the country.  Hixon has managed to assemble a ridiculous amount of talent, and some of the less prominent talent he did assemble developed in unexpected ways (like several of this year's juniors sprouting up after they arrived at college).  Let them have their era in the sun.  If they want to re-watch Olsen's shot, that's fine with me, it was an amazing play, they have every right to.  Williams has been so dominant over Amherst in athletics that we sometimes get frustrated when Amherst turns the tables -- but if Amherst never had its periods of dominance, the rivalry wouldn't be fun.  I am frustrated about hoops as well, and I hope this year's team can turn it around, but clearly something is missing at this point.   Amherst is on an amazing roll and, unfortunately for Williams, it won't stop anytime soon.  Time for Williams to relish the unusual role as an underdog and hope for a miracle when we play the Jeffs, who have simply dominated the Ephs of late. 

Senator Frost, just drop it, you're an embarassment.  I could list every injury Williams had in its history, including the championship years.  Just because Zieja had a bad game doesn't mean he had necessarily torn his ACL -- in all of your talk you've only attributed his performance, by definition, to a phantom injury.  Hey, in 2003, Tim Folan, possibly the Ephs' best player the start of the year, was severly limited by a back injury.  Kain was limited by an ankle.  And (in addition to the Coffin injury) one of the top recruits in the class of 2004 was crippled by injury before his career ever got off the ground.  It happens.  As they say, if ifs and buts were candies and nuts, oh what a party we'd have.  From 1996 through 2004, overall, Williams was better, especially in the big games.  Part of the reason Williams fans get so steamed is Amherst's fans and coaches basic inability to recognize that.  Well, Amherst has the better program NOW and for the foreseeable future, and has for three years.  So just enjoy it instead of ruminating over old wounds.

And sometimes, the tables will turn.  Amherst has been extraordinarily healthy during its run of recent dominance, which has contributed to its success.  The only major injury to a starter -- Corrigan -- ended up being a blessing in disguise as it got Olsen into the rotation sooner, and allowed Corrigan to play a fifth year.  If it makes you feel better, the Ephs are the ones who have struggled with bad injury luck of late, with pretty much every forward on the roster the last few years (Newton, Rose, Weisbrot, Kuntz, Hardy) struggling with some sort of major injury(ies).  Sure, those injuries aren't what accounted for the difference in the teams' success, but they definitely contributed to Williams' recent struggles.  Injuries happen to everyone. 

Lost in the various stupid comments from the Amherst throng were, I admit, a few gems.  In particular, I love the idea of running a white men can't jump scam with Weitzen -- that is a sure money-maker, as he is just about the least likely looking all-leaguer (he will be) in NESCAC history.  And also, I wholeheartedly agree that both Amherst and Williams fans need to take inspiration from Duke and Stanford and up the level of smack talking at games.  My most embarassing moment as a Williams fan was enduring a sophomoric safety school chant after a loss to a school that was not an academic powerhouse -- a good "man law" would definitely outlaw academic-based chants at sporting events.  A close second are the various "you suck" chants back and forth.  With all those intelligent kids on both sides, can't somebody come up with something creative, funny, but still highly insulting? 

[hoops21]

WAR crotty's sister literally laying the smack down on andrew "i cheated in college and got caught" schiel' sister down in salem. she was much better looking with a beer poured on her. priceless.

Hello everybody,
this is my first an probably last post on this website so for those of you who dont like personal attacks this is my one and only. 
I am writing to respond to Mr. Nescac here about the comment he so eloquently stated.
To set the record straight I never got a beer poured on my head, that was my friend who, I admit, was being a bitch to Crotty.  After Crotty poured the beer on her she left while I continued to talk to some members of the championship team.  It was at this point that Crotty's sister ran after my firend and proceeded to "jump" her in the elevator, classy move.  I pulled her off my friend and tried to break it up at which point Crotty's sister pulled my hair in a true cat fight moment....the rest escalated from there. 

My next question to you is why are  you still bringing up things from the past, about myself or my brother? 
Im not sure why you feel the need to rip on either of us anymore, maybe its bitterness, envy, or just a need to boost your own self esteem, im not quite sure.  Either way I think its funny that you still havent moved on with your clearly mundane life from incidents that have nothing to do with the game of basketball today or ever really did in the first place.
Now that is truely pathetically priceless.

[CCsalive]

Before the floodgates burst at their seems, I am going to scan the other league's "post-up" rooms to see if anything is as close to as good as the drama we have unfolding....

....why do you Nerds in Massachusetts love to forget the late 90's when Conn used to THUMP all of you?

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Option 1:


We're all totally blown away by the fact that Schiel's sister is still actively reading this board.


Option 2:

Someone is crazy enough to post as Schiel's sister, except only engaging arguments in a same and level headed manner.




Either way, this board is becoming the most interesting on the site.

[nescac1]

Hoops Fan, I think it was Schiel's sister.

I am surprised that no Amherst fan has noted that Steven Wheeler is 8-8 from 3 this season.  That is pretty ridiculous, even if it does come in garbage time.  Hard to do that even in practice.  Kind of scary that he is their fourth string 3 after his brother, Walters and Baskauskas. 

[Friar T]

First off, let's not trivialize the people who read this board. Be them mothers, sisters, monks, punks or cross-dressers, we're all here too. Enough said.

NESCAC1, glad to see you supporting my cry for fan creativity. I truly think it will take ample support from both sides to see this change. Also I find the lack of fan clubs with catchy names (ie Cameron Crazies) to be a crying shame, although Amherst's Lord Jeff Nation could put an end to that. Williamstown could introduce something like, "The Moo Crew" or "The Purple People Eaters?" Just a few ideas off the cuff...

However, please don't put me in the same category as your boy nescac fan. I've never gotten personal, and while my comments may be somewhat insulting at times, I have

A) Always recognized talent and given props where props are due.

and

B) Tried to incorporate a bit of witty wordplay or humor to at least amuse those I'm trash talking on.

Being a former DIII athlete myself (well I was on the team anyways), I have the utmost respect and admiration for any and all of these guys who go out there and bust their humps throughtout the long season.

Lil' Wheelz is gross, that's no question. The most disturbing fact about him is that despite his incredible talent, he probably won't see much of the floor this year b/c of their horrifying depth and height. His 8-8 numbers sure do make the future look bright though (I'm wearing shades). And for the record, those juniors at the 'Herst haven't grown much if at all over the past couple years, they came packaged that way. It was just hard to tell how truly huge they were as they sat on the bench biding their time...

FormerBant, great to see you back on here. As a long time reader and fan of your outstanding insight, your opinions are always welcome. How's the Roch treating you?

BlackLordJeff, it's good to see a REAL Holy man on here.

Very anxious to see what all our boys do over break with out-of-region scheduling...

[formerbant10]

Thunder, Friar T and the rest of the gang I appreciate the shout outs.

The Roc is treating me pretty well right now.  The weather is back in the 50's and it hasn't snowed much yet...so that's a bonus.

I'd have to agree with Hoops right now as this may be the wildest forum on the site.  As others have proposed, let's try to keep families out of this....I'm sure most of them read these posts and there is no reason to drag anyone through the mud, no matter what happened. 

As for catchy fan club names, I always loved playing for the Cockpit....snagged a couple of Cockpit t-shirts myself after one of the games.

[old_hooper]

nescac1, you are forgetting about the injury to Goldsmith.  He was sure to be a starter this year for the Jeffs.  Does anyone know if he will be back this year?

[nescac hoops]

hoops 21 - my bad on the family stuff. i hope friar t can fogive us both for our sins.

friar - if you want to get nit-picky about my comments i will state them as clearly as possible for you.

1. amherst is a great team but their scheduling is weak. i propose that if they played a better non-conference schedule that they would have possibly fared better down in salem.
2. the east region is not the greatest region. however, there are still some teams, although fewer than most regions, that are strong that are not too far from amherst who they could play. i don't think playing some of the teams on their schedule.
3. i'm not a huge paulsen fan, but i think his "philosophy" of playing the strongest schedule possible when you have a strong team yourself is better than hixon's philosohy of having a softer schedule.
4. i, as would most athletes, would prefer to win a national champtionship over "coming close" every year. knock tennis all you want, but it was pretty special to win in twice as it would be for any athlete in any sport.

senator and old hooper - if you are talking about the year fitzgibbons was hurt i will remind you that tim folan had back surgery that year and missed the enitre first semester and never reached 100% when he came back. that same year tucker kain suffered a severe ankle sprain and missed more than half the season. if you want to get nit-picky as well in terms of exactly what bone ben coffin broke you can talk to the williams trainers. in fact, that year when fitzgibbons was hurt i believe it was williams who won the first game in early january when fitzgibbons was healthy (?). Either way, to compare injury lists and to make excuses for losses based on who was hurt and how sore this hammy was compared to what bone in a foot was broken is all pointless. as a side note, in that class with coffin, abba, and crotty was a kid named blake morgan. he was the 4th senior who, with crotty, was sheehy's top recruit. he still may hold the nj high school scoring title or is in the top 10 somewhere. he was supposed to be a special player but blew his knee out twice and never recovered, which was really too bad.

is crotty's sister really on this? did i miss a post?

lastly, former williams basketball player (who quit and the ephs could really use him) Dana Leary was named D3 national player of the year. I wish he chose to stick with basketball, too.

[formerbant10]

Thunder,

Trinity seems to be right around where they should be.  A tough loss ending the semester in a big rivalry game against the pride.  Those games have been absolute wars the last few years.  But 7-1 is a very good record, especially since most people thought they would be caught in a year of adjustment with Rhoten graduating.

The team is very different than previous years, but they'll be extremely competitive this year.  They have a lot of experience and are a very long, athletic team.  A couple of guys are capable of going for 30 and as long as they play unselfishly it should be a good year for them.

Senator,

Going back to your statement about Taylor.  He hurt his wrist early in the year and had trouble extending on his follow through.  Whenever he started to see some improvement, something would happen where he'd tweak it again.  Looks like it just wasn't meant to be for the Bants.

[Friar T]

Goldsmith is supposed to return towards the end of the year. Not sure how many games he'll get in or how close to 100% he'll be, but what an addition to an already stacked lineup. Before his unfortunate injury he had returned to Amherst an absolute MONSTER, looking close to 20 lbs. bigger than last year. He's listed at 220, but I think it would be safe to call him closer to 230-235.

nescac, I always understood your points, I just never thought any of them were any good... Amherst had played lots of cupcakes in the past for a variety of reasons. However, this year I think they've taken great strides towards breaking that trend with games against teams like Brandeis, RIC and the Texas trip. These are some of the best teams that the subpar NE region has to offer (as you have put it). You should also know, being a Williams grad, that schools with strenuous academic rigors severly discourage extensive road trips during the academic calendar, making it difficult for NESCAC schools to play out of region. Besides, I believe it was you, nescac, who said you can't play everyone. Props to Coach Hix for doing his best to challenge one of the best teams he's ever coached.

Also, let's not forget that it takes two to tango. You can invite schools to tournaments or call them to schedule games, but if they don't want to play you, the game won't happen. Schools of high caliber always problems filling their schedules b/c no one wants a probable loss on their slate. This is the reason teams like Clark dropped Amherst from its schedule after losing three straight from 03-05, and WPI hasn't played the Jeffs since a 17-point loss in the season-opening Ken Wright Invitational in '02.

Coaches at all schools (especially good ones) have a very difficult task in maintaining the balance of challenging their players without filling their schedule with games against probable losses. It is not a task I envy, nor do I try to spend too much time criticizing the guys who are stuck with it.

That being said, I only poke fun at Paulsen (who I happen to respect and enjoy as an individual) b/c that's what fans of this beloved rivalry to do each other when one of the two is on top. Like I alluded to before, I think all these guys are borderline superheros just for being out there.

Nit-picky is a word that should never appear on this board again unless you're wearing tights while typing it...

[The Historian]

In the spirit of this recent detente, I'd just like to echo the Friar's good words.

I've always tried to be very fair in my comments around actual basketball matters.  I believe that I gave Williams all due respect with regard to their truly amazing teams in 02/03 and 03/04.  I carefully went on record as saying I would disagree with a comment saying that Amherst was a better team than Williams in those years.  As the record shows, we weren't.  I was just saying that we were close.  We were Michigan to William's Ohio State.  And, yes, I'm jealous of the banner, but I don't think that's mean or insulting.  It's honest.  I wish we had one.

I have also tried to bring a little humor--or, as the Friar put it, "witty word play"--into my posts.  Admittedly, this humor came at Williams' expense, particularly Paulsen.  I meant no ill will and have NEVER spoken ill of any Williams player.  If someone can point to my statements of "constantly trashing Williams players" or calling them "goons," I will gladly and penitently retract those statements.  Paulsen's a little different; after all, he gets paid to do what he does.  Even so, I don't think I've ever said anything personally insulting to him.  I just poked a little fun at his recent recruiting struggles.

Also, I have never defended Amherst's less than challenging early season scheduling.  I would love to see Amherst play some national powerhouses early on.  I only questioned the real impact those November games had on our lack of success in Salem.  Maybe they did; maybe they didn't.  I'll defer to those who actually played for an answer.

I can't defend the elf posting.  I think thunder32 probably put it best.  basketball elf is an ass, albeit sort of a funny one.

While I'm at it, as a point of clarification, the "war" usage is actually a show of respect.  It's a Jim Rome thing.  But when you "war" someone or something, you're actually giving your love.  Its origins lie in Auburn's "War Eagle" slogan.  For more information, you can look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Eagle

As always, before you speak, you got to think.

Also I'm down--like a Jackson Collins slam--with fan clubs and more inspired cheers.  Witty word play is fun, after all.

And, really, that's why we're all here, isn't it?  I just want some fun.  Because, as Henry Ford once said, "History is more or less bunk."

[senatorfrost]

  Nescacs: Fitzsimons was hurt before the Williams game. he played the rest of the season and played well. however, at the beginning of the year he showed that he had picked up a remarkable first step and move to the basket which he had never (in my opinion) shown before. He also played less minutes after his injury. As I said-he played well but not as well and it was noticeable.
  Second point-in the Tennis Reading Comprehension test, I mentioned the fact that BOTH Jeff and Bill had minor ailments. Amherst like Williams each had a few  people who were able to play through, without noticeable suffering. Folan was not even close to the best player on the Eph team but unlike the  so called minor ailments, his was noticeable and his minutes were down.
NESCAC 1-If you want to believe that Zieja had a phantom injury-go right ahead. If you want to believe only getting four shots off in a game was just a bad game-You can also believe that the Supermen of Williamstown shut him down. You have that right. If that is more comforting to you than my version-well go ahead and embrace whatever you like.
   If you want to believe that the breaking of a foot in the middle of a game that was starting to lean toward's Amherst (in MY opinion) had no effect on the outcome-again-it is your right to believe whatever you wish- However, one of my points is this. Hixon is constantly being castigated for not saying Williams was a better team. If a neutral observer were to read what I wrote and then were to listen to both sides of the argument, it is my opinion, that a 'reasonable man' would say that indeed there is a case to be made for the idea that perhaps Amherst would have been the better team. So why isn't Hixon entitled to his view? I never read or heard any of his comments along these lines but if they were as Eph fans have indicated-then why is he not entitled to that opinion, especially in view of what I have pointed out.
   Why not return to reality though. Williams won and that is what counts, just like in 2005 Amherst won NESCAC aided, in MY opinion by Taylor's woes. There are people like myself (and I assume Coach Hixon) who believe that the better team did not prevail but so what? I mean it's not like there is NO case at all for that belief.
   NESCAC1. You commanded me to "Just Drop it" an impressive sort of a command as if I were household help or an underling of some sort. I don't mind your tone and I will drop it as I have for all this time since I last read about the wonders of Eph basketball and the greatness of 03 and 04 and criticism of coach Hixon. If you want to bellow and blast about the good old days, you have to recognize that there are people with conflicting thoughts who, just like you, have the right to speak. So be forewarned, I will always respond to the 'Bellowing'. I can't help it.
   
     

[nescac hoops]

senator,
but my doctor said that the already broken bone in coffin's foot was a more intergral bone than the one tim jones broke. my doctor also said coffin was an all-american and nescac player of the year that season. you are entitled to your opinion, as i am to mine. but if your opinion is based on injuries to tim jones, please keep you opinion to yourself b/c comparisons of injuries to players on both team is just stupid. don't get me wrong, jones was a great player but not the best amherst player - at best, jones was equivalent to what folan was to williams. but as jones himself already admitted in an earlier post, "ben coffin was the best player i ever played against." again, tim jones was a great defender and a tough player but coffin still had great games against him even when jones was 100% healthy. as an observer of many williams games that season, i can tell you that coffin was at times in pain - hobbling, whincing in pain, etc. maybe his minutes or numbers didn't drop significantly and his talent overshadowed his injury but ill argue he was not quite as effective as he could have been - which is down right scary to think of.

back to basketball. as for the championship game, i will say that in many ways tucker kain's shot earlier that season was the deciding factor. his shot did more than send that particular game into OT. when he hit that shot there was never a doubt in anybody's mind who would come out in OT - just as i'm sure there was no doubt after the olsen shot. had amherst won that game they would have been 2-0 vs. the ephs and the nescac championship game would have been at lefrak. williams won the title game at lefrak the previous year but having already lost twice to the jeffs, i think this one would have been harder to pull off. that being said, the ephs won in OT and the conference championship was in williamstown. while the game was by no means a blowout (around 10-15 points), i don't think from the tip-off there was any doubt who would win that game. i can't put a finger on it, but it was almost as if amherst came expecting to lose that game. don't get me wrong, they played their hearts out as always but they lacked something that they had when the two teams first met in amherst and right before kain's shot created a  pandemonium in chandler. i think some hope on amherst's side was restored when they got to play williams again in the final 4 on a neutral floor, even though there were FAR more williams fans there. however, while you may think tim jones's broken foot was the deciding factor, i think amherst not haveing the "edge" of being 3-0 against williams (assuming they could have won the nescac championship on their home floor) was more of the deciding factor. but then again, i didn't even take a psych class at williams but it's just my opinion.