MBB: NESCAC

[met_fan]

Weezy,
I brought up the question of how many teams might stay within 10 points of Amherst (and I'm not an Amherst fan) in the regular season, and to this point, only one has (and it was a team that many would have guessed would do it).  I wouldn't be surprised if that's the only one before the NESCAC tourney, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see Trinity give them a game.  As a Hamilton fan (who wishes they still played a NESCAC schedule), it's nice to see Middlebury have a nice start to their conference schedule, since I looked at that as a terrible loss when it happened.  We'll see how they do as they get deeper into the season - they have a tendency to really fall off in the second half.

[formerbant10]

Aaron Smith deserves to be in the conversation of best big men in the NESCAC. He's young and new on the scene, but ask Drew Cohen and Colby's coach, who doubled down on him to give Cohen help.

I'd have no problem considering that had he not followed that game with 4 points and 5 boards in 14 minutes against Bowdoin.

He could be on his way, but he's not there yet....IMO

[Friar T]

I agree with FormerBant. A guy has to do it day in and day out to get mentioned up there with Cohen and Stockwell. Smith and Kelly, while clearly able to have big days and are both solid, are not on that page yet.

Before anyone gets too carried away talking about Middlebury, lets remember that they played two midlevel (at best) NESCAC teams at home. I would be very surprised if they gave the Jeffs much trouble at "The Freak." Granted I haven't seen Midd play, but I think I would be erring on the side of caution by saying that Tufts is still a better team and Eclinchy is not foolish. Midd hasn't beat ANYONE and has 3 glaring losses to some pretty poor teams. I can see them losing this weekend's games by a combined 40 points. Maybe a little excessive, but I doubt that too many will disagree with me in this forum.

Kino's real fast..., but I'd rather come back as Ton Ton Balenga. Just because of his name...

[whoarewebobcats]

Obviously since Trinity won, and it was at Bates (I'm very much familiar with the homecourt advantage Alumni provides ), they would have a slight edge in any kind of ranking system, commentary, etc. I'm just saying that they were pretty even in terms of performance (after all, it was a 5 pt game), and a few more Trinity shots fell than Bates shots. This is a result of a number of things--Bates couldn't knock down free throws, Wholey and Halloran couldn't get open, they didn't feed Rob nearly enough, etc. etc. If they were to play again, I wouldn't just call it a gimme for Trinity, is all I'm saying. Bates is very capable of staying with that team and pulling out a W should they meet in the tourney. It was more a comparative statement--Bates will not defeat Amherst, Amherst is significantly better than them, than Trinity, etc. etc.

I agree that Zak for POY would be pretty crazy talk. He is a marvelous player and infinitely valuable to the Bobcats. If I were picking a team, I'd want him running it. But accolades go to numbers producers, and Zak isn't that kind of player. His shooting percentage is always pretty poor (normally, as far as I'm concerned, because whenever the Bobcats get in trouble he tries to pull them out himself by driving to the hoop and throwing up crazy shots to get fouled, i.e., I think he would shoot a much better percentage if the offense was at all designed to set up shots for him), and his value is in the threat he poses more than the actual numbers. The way I say that makes it sound like I'm saying he doesn't live up to potential, but that's not it at all--he has a lot of talent, and he uses it, and a lot of the time the way he uses it is either as a decoy to get other guys open, or to stretch the team. As I said in my earlier post, this works against a lot of teams, but not against the strongest, most well-disciplined NESCAC teams.

Olsen outplayed him Saturday, no question, but I haven't seen him enough to know him that well (in comparison to Zak, who I've probably seen play 40 times). I was impressed, I don't really know how you couldn't be. He's a tough kid. Again, to me POY kinds of accolades go to numbers, and (granted, I'm not looking at the numbers right now) based on how I saw the Amherst team play, I don't think anyone on that team will put up characteristically POY numbers. But I definitely could be wrong. I have nothing but respect for that team, if I didn't make that clear .

[The Historian]

Back in the 'hearst.  Back at work.  Time to post.

Obviously, as an Amherst fan, it was a great weekend to make the roadtrip.  Much has already been written about the games, but I'll just add a few observations.

First, Tufts is a scary team.  It's hard for me to believe -- based on how they played the Jeffs -- that they already have 5 losses.  I have to assume that it took some time for them to adjust to the loss of Martin early this season.  But Friday they seemed to have made all the adjustments they needed.  And Pierce is going to fill in nicely for them in the post.  He's not as dominant down low, but the man can shoot.  With him and Weitzen out there (who, I agree, should get more touches), every opposing big man really has to guard the perimeter, which opens things up for everyone else.

As for Amherst on Friday, their performance certainly validated the posters who thought that Amherst would start to go to a tighter rotation once they hit tougher competition.  In the Tufts game, Wheeler, Olson, McLaughlin, and Baskauskas all played at least 35 minutes and Jones put in 31.  Of course, some of this was forced upon the Jeffs because of O'Shea's injury and the Coulibaly situation.  Still, it was good to see strong performances from the go-to guys, particularly Baskauskas who I think would have definitely won Rookie of the Year last year had he ever seen the floor.  And you can't say enough about Olson.  While his boxscore was solid, I don't think it really conveyed his importance to the game.  He seemingly willed Amherst to win through both his play and his leadership on the floor.  He was really pissed that he missed that late second layup.  Perhaps it's a bit of a stretch, but watching the Patriots game yesterday, I couldn't help but see parallels between the Pats and the Jeffs on Friday.  Cliche as it is, both teams just found ways to win.  Arguably, neither team was the best on the field or the court that day (or at least for most of the day), but they both stayed just close enough to be able to pull it out in the end.  As a great man once told me, "winners win."  And that's what I saw Friday: winners winning.

As for the Bates game, I was slightly disappointed by their fans.  I had heard a lot about what a tough place it is to play as a visiting team.  And while it was certainly warm, the crowd was definitely nothing out of the ordinary.  Perhaps they were still feeling the Trinity loss or were subdued by Amherst's solid 7-9 point lead throughout much of the game, but they just weren't that loud or disruptive.  In terms of basketball, I think whoarewebobcats summarized it nicely.  I'm sorry, Red1, but I just didn't see it like you did.  I do think there were some questionable calls--on both ends--but that did not determine the outcome of the game.  Stockwell's fouls, in particular, were among the less controversial.  It was a battle down low, and each team's big men had 9 fouls combined.

With regard to the Olson-Ray debate, I'll just share a little story that my good friend Quigs and I observed.  During the game we were sitting next to a local high school or AAU basketball team.  They were obviously huge Bates fans.  Before the game they were singing Ray's praises.  When they saw Olson warming up, they were laughing about how Ray was going to mop the floor with him.  Then the game began.  On more than a few occasions, they ooed and ahhed at an Olson pass or shot.  One time, in particular, after a particularly sweet pass, we heard a kid go, "Oh my god!  How did he find that guy?  I totally thought he was going to the other guy.  I didn't even see the guy he passed to."  By the end of the game, Olson had won them over.  The concluding thought from one of the young players was, "Wow.  Olson's even better than Ray."  Through the eyes of babes...  Now, I think Ray is a tremendous player, but on Saturday, at least, Olson outplayed him.

As for this coming weekend, I think I can safely say that for the first time in my memory I am definitely more concerned about Middlebury than I am about Williams.  That said, I'm not all that concerned.  But I am excited to see Midd play.  I don't know much about them, but I wish them the best.  I think it would be great to see them make the NESCAC tourney again (and to see Williams miss it).

[whoarewebobcats]

I too was disappointed by the Saturday crowd at Bates...Friday's was twice as boisterous. The crowd didn't seem that in to the Amherst game, even our wonderful kazoo guy couldn't get the B-A-T-E-S cheer going well. I credit Amherst getting out to an early lead and taking the crowd out of it.

One other thing--I looked up the Foster kid (the 6'11 guy headed to Bates next year) that someone mentioned and I agree, the stats are not impressive. Maybe it's a really competitive high school division he's in, but if I were the rest of NESCAC, I wouldn't be too worried. His shooting % wasn't very good, which seems ridiculous for a 6'11 kid. It would be nice to have some height (which the 6'9 Amherst kid reminded me constantly on Saturday), so maybe he'll develop.

[nescac hoops]

sounds like a pretty exciting weekend of basketball that will most likely set up a big game in hartford in the last weekend with amherst/trinity. i haven't seen tufts play in years and i don't know what it is about them, but they do something that seems to really give amherst trouble. i don't know if they have speed, size, style of play, etc. but has seemed to give amherst some real trouble....and some exciting games. i still think amherst will go undefeated in the conference, but they fight for the 2nd spot could be really interesting and i think would go to a "coin toss" if bates were to beat tufts in there matchup and the three teams (tufts, trinity, bates) win out.

on another note....while i still don't believe that williams is all that good, they did go 2-0 this weekend. if they can beat the teams they are supposed to from here on in (midd, conn, wesleyan), they will secure themselves the 5th seed which would be better than i expected. that being said, i think there is a big drop off after teams #1-4 and the rest of the conference. however, chris rose is REALLY struggling out there with his shot. it's only a matter of time before he finds his shot and i think the ephs jack up enough 3s that, if they were to catch fire, they could pull off an unexpected upset at home like they did with trinity last year..... bates or tufts. perhaps wishful thinking but it could happen.

[formerbant10]

I too was disappointed by the Saturday crowd at Bates...Friday's was twice as boisterous. The crowd didn't seem that in to the Amherst game, even our wonderful kazoo guy couldn't get the B-A-T-E-S cheer going well. I credit Amherst getting out to an early lead and taking the crowd out of it.

I heard that the fans went shirt and tie on Friday night, because Bates means business. 

Very creative.

[JeffRookie2]

Ok, Red1, whoarewebobcats, eclinchy, thunderdan, turighty, etc...

Who does Saturday's game mean more to? A loss for Bates would mean three L's in the NESCAC and the Bobcats would probably have to win out just to secure the #4 seed. A loss for Tufts might mean the end of their hopes for a Pool C bid, meaning they would have to win the NESCAC tournament to get into the NCAAs. Which squad will want it more?


Also, this weekend might feature the deciding games in which two teams will take the 7 and 8 seeds and which teams will miss the tourny all together. Colby and Bowdoin host Conn Coll and Wes Tech. I think any team that goes 2-0 here secures themselves a spot, while anyone who goes 0-2 might be out. I suppose Conn Coll will be the most desperate after their loss to Wes last weekend. I could see both Maine teams going 2-0 at home though.

[WeezyFBaby]

I see what you're saying about consistency, formerbant, but Midd/Bowdoin Saturday was a 30 point game basically from the tip. With the makeup of Middlebury's team, no one player will get stats every game. They have a lot of weapons and pretty much ride the hot hand whether that be Rudin, Harris, Thompson, or Smith. I just wanted to alert this board, which does get much Middlebury chatter, that Aaron's got skills. But I understand that until the numbers are there, he won't get looks with Stone, Cohen, Kelly, etc.

All I, and everyone else at Midd, feel really is excitement to see how our guys will do this weekend. If they have a tough weekend, obviously that means they're not ready yet. If they have some success, maybe they are. Either way right now the campus is energized and it's a lot of fun.

[WeezyFBaby]

correction: does NOT get much Middlebury chatter

[formerbant10]

I don't think many people outside of Vermont expected them to be where they are right now.  Quite a pleasant surprise.  But this upcoming weekend's games will be a real test...at Amherst and Trinity is a tough weekend.  I'm not sure when the last time anybody pulled off a sweep of those two was.  Going home with 1 win is tough enough.

I hear ya on the blow out game for Smith's lack of numbers.  Let's see how he does this weekend also. 

[whoarewebobcats]

I don't know Tufts' makeup all that well, but from the Bates standpoint the game is pretty huge. Reilly's best recruiting class starting their NESCAC year 0-3 would be disastrous not just for them but I think for their reputation. Their record against the top NESCAC teams over the last few years hasn't been stellar (though their tourney play has been strong) and it might get harder to convince recruits to come to Bates if this program can't get over the hump to some degree. From the "here and now" perspective, I can't imagine what would happen to this team if they drop it to Tufts, I think the whole year could kind of crumble, which would be very disappointing. I don't think Zak and Rob will let it happen, though. But after seeing Bates-Tufts last year, I can't say I'm not worried...

That said, I realize that was maybe the negative view. It's a pretty strong-willed team, and they probably could pull themselves around and make a run and gain confidence going into the NESCAC tourney. But, it's the biggest game of the season for Bates, so if it's the biggest game of the season for Tufts, too, I imagine it'll be a good one.

[Old Guy]

Formerbant is right: go slow on annointing Smith (Midd) as a dominant big man in NESCAC.

He's come a long way since last year. He's young (a soph), a hard worker. You'll love watching him play. He's solid in the low post. Doesn't take bad shots, makes good decisions with the ball, has a nice touch from the line, never complains. He's not a game breaker, but he requires some attention underneath which has a benefit on the perimeter where Middlebury's strengths are most obvious.

If Middlebury is better than last year (they were 10-3 going into NESCAC play and lost to Conn College by one and beat Wes on the first weekend) it's because everyone's a year older, including Smith, and they're playing loose and confidently. I hope they're still confident and loose after this weekend.

[hoopjunkie]

Well what a weekend it was in Medford , Tufts should be 2-0 but once again Amherst lucked out again .
Tuft sure showed the bantams who the better team was .
We were all treated to 2 great games.Here are my observations on some players from Amherst , Trinity & Tufts

Amherst : Olson - 1st team Nescac-as much as I hate his arrogance he is a great point guard . Best in the league .
Brian Baskauskas - what a shooter!! - next year he will be as good as Bedford last year - he has no weakness .
I think Wheeler is a little overrated but a good player as is Mclaughlin  .
After these guys Amherst is really a good  team _ big but nothing special at least what I saw Friday .

Tufts :  the key to the Jumbos is Okeefe , Pierce . If they score Jumbos win . They must be consistant & take
good shots. Okeefe does force alot , & Pierce has terrible hands but is very athletic . Sheppard is a good solid player .
Weitzen is my favorite point forward. He had 7 assists vs Amherst . i agree with alot of the comments,
he need more touches . He always draws the best defender of the opposition & still scores inside & outside .
Look out for Dave Beyel freshman who is getting good minutes & hustles .

Trinity : The best backcourt in the conference Kino Clarke was amazing !! quicker then quick wow great shooter
Pat Martin : Love him -a tough backcourt guy shooting guard or point ?? he goes left better then anyone Ive seen . \
Robert taylor : real good player,  athletic & drove thru the Jumbo defense everytime.
Westbrooke & Rowe : Great defenders but not much on offense . They are tough
Russ Martin : too soft for me shot 3-14 vs Tufts  enough said .

I think Trinity can beat Amherst - Should be a great matchup at Bates- Stockwell vs Weitzen -the winner of that war
should bring his team to victory .







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