MBB: NESCAC

cruiser · January 16, 2007, 08:46:09 AM

people may be forgetting that colby point nick farrell is playing absolutely lights out

formerbant10 · January 16, 2007, 09:26:12 AM

Cruiser,

Great point on Farrell. It also seems that people have forgotten about Russ Martin. He's been having the best year for the Bants so far. All conference players are judged on the whole season, not just the 1st weekend of NESCAC play.

Friar T · January 16, 2007, 10:08:31 AM

Olson arrogant? Definitely one of the most down to earth stars I've ever seen play. God knows that if I had that kid's talent and success, I'd be walking around like King-Ding-A-Ling. Don't mistake his swagger for cockiness, he's just that good...

Some quick defense of the Trinity role players. Westbrooks, while not much of an offensive threat, has some of the best defensive footwork I've ever seen in the NESCAC. Not a guy who's gonna go out and get steals and block shots, but he's guaranteed to keep his feet in front of most guys in the league. Let's not forget he's just a sophomore. As for Hoar, here's a guy who's definitely earned his stripes in the 'CAC. He's been starting on a very good Trinity team for the last two years (at least), and was always a great compliment to Rhoten. Not much of what either of these guys do is going to show up in the box score, but take them out of the equation and Trinity is not even close to as good as they are...

Agreed that T-Mac is possibly the most underrated player in the conference. He has the ability to go off from behind the arc, as displayed on Saturday, and has great anticipation in the passing lanes. Not quite Adam Harper's zen-like "I can read your mind and steal your pass" anticipation, but maybe rather "I can see the glint in your eye and get in the passing lane" style.

Show Bauksy some LOVE... It's always been common knowledge around the Amherst scene that the kid is a scoring machine, going off in practice like Arenas on the Jazz on MLK Day. However, he starting to complete his game both defensively and on the boards and that is the big difference that I've seen. Just a sophomore too...

While people keep carrying on about Cohen's great numbers, are we forgetting that numbers only carry so much weight if your team's in the crapper? Are people so ready to just hand over POY honors to a guy on a team that won't finish higher than 5th? No one is denying his talent, but I feel like there has to be more criteria that just individual production. That being said, Defensive POY should be his again (with Ray and T-Mac finishing close behind for the second straight year), but the Mules will have to step up their game the rest of the way to get him in POY contention...

hoopjunkie · January 16, 2007, 10:22:35 AM

Friar T
Sorry but who is T-Mac ? Basky is definetly a great shooter - Ive never seen Cohen
play but I agree with you about the success of the team being important to being POY .
Also i can`t get down with him missing a couple of games last year due to his brother
wedding . I don`t care if the president is getting married I would`nt miss a game .
Also Jeffrookie I love your first team picks . Nice job

nescac hoops · January 16, 2007, 10:56:44 AM

Cruiser and Jeff Rookie----

Cruiser, i'm not sure if you are implying that Farrell should also be receiving some conference accolades but if you are, i have to point out the following. While I have never seen Farrell or Cohen play, if Cohen is truly the best that the NESCAC has to offer and Farrell is truly "lights out" then I have a hard time believing they could go 0-2 this weekend. Sure, a team needs more than two players and there are teams in the NESCAC (trinity, bates, amherst....and now apparently Tufts) who require more than a POY and all conference player to beat, however Midd and Williams are not two of those teams. I guess my point is that if these two players are as good as they seem (statistics), I would expect them to beat Williams and Middlebury. I don't mean to sound like Albert Pujols, and say that POY/MVPs must come from contending teams, but I do think it's a possibilty that Cohen and Farrell's production may be SLIGHTLY inflated and misleading. Like I've said, I have not seen Colby play recently and have heard first hand that Cohen is VERY good....and I believe that he is truly 1st teamer and I know nothing of Farrell. I guess my point is that if there was a NESCAC draft and you asked coaches who they would take if they had their first pick to build there team around, I think more would take Andrew Olson, as would I, than would take Cohen.

JeffRookie2 · January 16, 2007, 12:35:52 PM

hoopjunkie, T-Mac=Tim McLaughlin.

I said at the end of my post that there are a lot of good players that I left off. I did consider R. Martin and Farrell. However, I feel that Trinity will not get 3 spots and both Clarke and P. Martin are more deserving and I don't think Colby will get more than 1 spot and obviously Cohen is more deserving. As for the Amherst guys, believe me, I appreciate how good Baskauskas and McLaughlin are and maybe amherst will get one more second team slot. I just put who I'm predicting will win the awards, not necessarily who I think deserves them the most. That especially goes for Cohen, who I still think will win, although I personally feel an Olson or a Stockwell would be more deserving.

By the way, how good are the point guards in the NESCAC? We have Olson, Martin, Shepard, Black, Ray, Farrell, Shalvoy, Rudin. More teams than not have a stellar point. Pat, am I wrong? How does the NESCAC compare to other strong conferences around the country in terms of point guards?

whoarewebobcats · January 16, 2007, 01:19:22 PM

I've never really understood the obsession with Cohen--he's a very strong shot blocker, obviously, and defensive force, but I certainly don't see him as a POY or anything remotely like that (granted, I see through a garnet haze, so maybe the name on his jersey won't let me like him. Then again, I hate Amherst too, and I've spent the last few days singing their praises...). I think I probably saw 7-8 guys this weekend from Amherst, Bates, and Trinity that I'd rather have than him.

As for Olson, I didn't notice any arrogance from him either, and I just wanted to chime in on the fact that I think players of his ilk often are viewed as arrogrant by opposing fans, and confident by fans of his team. This has happened for most really strong Bates players over the years who are the least bit showy--dating back to Garvey, including Gerrity, and even now Zak, who is one of the most respectful people I can think of; I've heard complaints about all of them. Sometimes it's hard to see outside of what jersey someone is wearing. The only person I thought was a little arrogant this weekend was Westbrooks of Trinity, he seemed to be doing an awful lot of talking, especially to Zak, and didn't seem to be all that special. I don't mind showing confidence on the road if you back it up (Martin and Olson in particular), if you're the home team I think the rules are a little looser, but that's just how I feel as a spectator. The Tufts guys seemed pretty arrogant when I saw Bates in Waltham last year, but I didn't mind as much because it was their court and their crowd.

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) · January 16, 2007, 01:23:51 PM

I think the issue is that players like Olson have every right to be a bit arrogant when it comes to their play. They're good and the confidence they have in their abilities is part of what makes them good.

The difference comes when you think you're better than you are. That's certainly possible with anyone at any talent level.

Disclaimer: I am not making any value judgements of any player, coach or associated personnel. This is merely a overarching opinion.

frank uible · January 16, 2007, 01:34:45 PM

Arrogance by and among DIII athletes (a not uncommon phenomenom) is laughable for obvious reasons.

TUrighty14 · January 16, 2007, 01:40:55 PM

whoarewe, Tufts plays in Medford. Brandeis plays in Waltham.

As for this whole arrogant discussion, I don't like basketball players that don't have a little arrogance in them. Call it showy, call it cocky, whatever you want to call it, part of the pedigree to being a stud basketball player is playing with a little arrogance.

formerbant10 · January 16, 2007, 02:13:12 PM

whoarewe,

Forgive Westbrooks, it's not his fault his Irish. They never stop talking over there.

Can their really be an arrogant player??? A person can be arrogant, which led me to believe the original comment was about his character off the court. Players are confident, cocky, showy...you get the point.

And as TU said, that's a part of the pedigree of great players.

Frank,

Can those DIII athletes not be proud of their accomplishments? Not everyone is good enough to play past high school, so while DIII athletes may not be the top 1%....they certainly can take some pride in the fact that they are college athletes and there are now posting forums to discuss their highs and lows.

But you are right, there are some who take it way too far.

nescac hoops · January 16, 2007, 02:33:35 PM

frank,
you can call me arrogant, but ill take a nescac education and a 99.9% chance of graduating over a 35-40% chance of graduating (d1 basketball rate) and a .5% chance of making the NBA. i know this wasn't part of your argument, but it is one reason d3 players can feel better about themselves.

whoarewebobcats · January 16, 2007, 03:05:01 PM

Thanks for the correction about Waltham/Medford...I said that today to somebody too, don't know why I got that in my head. I live near Waltham now, must've just been thinking about it.

D3 players should absolutely be proud of what they do. If there are rights to being an arrogant player, where is the line drawn? Most D1 guys don't make the pros, and most who do aren't great...should only hall of fame NBA players be justified in their self-confidence? I guess some of this discussion is getting muddled by semantics...I suppose arrogance isn't exactly the word people are generally talking about. I agree with Hoops Fan, the guys who seem to be showy or kind of into themselves when they aren't that great are the ones that really bother me, and, as I mentioned before, players on the road (almost at any level) almost always bug me when they get too cocky. Just a personal preference. I don't mind when Olson plays with a bit of swagger, or Martin, but when a guy like Hippert pops off in the paper about being better than Zak and not understanding why people don't realize it, or guys who needlessly get showy (Furbush used to get a little too excited about hitting threes for my taste) without being able to back it up are I think what people are mostly talking about, and certainly what I'm talking about.

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) · January 16, 2007, 03:13:18 PM

Quote from: nescac hoops on January 16, 2007, 02:33:35 PM
frank,
you can call me arrogant, but ill take a nescac education and a 99.9% chance of graduating over a 35-40% chance of graduating (d1 basketball rate) and a .5% chance of making the NBA. i know this wasn't part of your argument, but it is one reason d3 players can feel better about themselves.

Better = self-righteous?

I think we can just say that everyone has reason to be proud of whatever athletic accomplishments they achieve. Does it have to be a competition?

MeOak21 · January 16, 2007, 03:18:57 PM

I am not sure why being a D3 player would cause someone to feel bad about themself to begin with. It never bothered me...

As for the arrogance discussion; do people want the players out on the court to be emotionless? Arrogance/confidence/cockiness- whatever you want to call it- has a great entertainment value.

And why can't we warrant a D3 player to be arrogant??

Frank- no disrespect intended, but I'm not sure what those "obvious" reasons are that you were referring to.