MBB: NESCAC

[nescacfan33]

I was saying that if Wes had R.Kelly they would be 3-4 this year, at worse 5. R.Kelly would have been the best big man in the league, hands down. Drew Cohen and Rob Stockwell (who is more of a 3-4 man) would have been the only other big man to give him a challenge. And that is the truth.

[JeffRookie2]

What!? Come on. Rhoten is the best big man in the league and has been for awhile now. I would have traded Schiel for him every day of the week and twice on Sundays last year. Not that Schiel wasn't an amazing player, but Rhoten is in a league of his own.

[nescacfan33]

Are we considering Rhoten a true big man now? Cause I thought any real basketball fan would understand that he is more of a brilliant 3 man than he is a 4 or a 5. He isn't a pure post man with post moves and power. He is a smooth player/unbelievable shooter that fits more of a 3 than a bonafide big man. Cmon JeffRookie...

[formerbant10]

If you watched Rhoten play, you would see that he completely outplays every big man he matches up against.  He is stronger than the 4's that guard him and much much quicker than the 5's that guard him, including Kelly and Kanem Johnson before him at Wes.  He's not a 3 at this level, maybe next year he'll move to it.  He does have  that abililty to do so if he wants.  Yes he is a great shooter, but he is a great scorer from anywhere on the court.  And I agree with JeffRookie saying that he's been the best in the conference for a while now.  And I wouldn't sleep on Cohen either.  He's much better defensively than Kelly ever was and has been scoring about 16 ppg the last year and a half now.  You still haven't said who Wes would be behind though.  That was my main question.

[ChesterGreen]

When I think of a top 4-5 man in the league (ie traditional post players) I think of scoring mid to high double digits, double digit or close to it rebounds, two or more blocks a game, and gets their points from the post.  All of which Kelly did, but I must agree with Nescacfan33 that with that being said Rhoten is not your traditional post player.  He plays in a offense where he is not required to score and create from the post exclusively not to say he couldn't do it. 

Formerbant, I also would be hesitant to say Rhoten was quicker than Kanem Johnson who was one of the quickest and most athletic big men in recent years.   An I don't know of him ever out playing Kanem who led the league in scoring and rebounding his junior and senior year although no big men then and now has out hustled Rhoten whom seemingly works for everything every game.  Like Rhoten howver leading the league in scoring didn't translate into being player of the year.

I think Stockwell's game and what is required of him is similar to Rhoten but he does rebound well for his position.  I think Cohen is the best 'traditional big man' currently in the league but Stone from Conn is not far behind ( on a side note Conn College is 5-2 looks like their potential from years past is finally playing off), and Martin from Tufts appears improved.  I still think by seasons end Pellitier will be in this group but even he scores extensively from the outside.  I would not place Schiel in the category of traditional big men because you have to be dominant on the boards consistently which he certainly was not.   Stovell however was your prototypical d3 big man although undersized.   I'm not going to place any guesses of where Wes would finish with Kelly but I would say any team in the league could be beaten on a given night.   

[formerbant10]

Are you saying that Rhoten doesn't score mid to high double digits and close to double digits in rebounding???  And Rhoten outplayed Johnson a couple of times, one being in the 3 point loss @ Wes.  Rhoten 24 points, 14 rebounds to Johnson's 14 points 5 rebounds.  I'll give Johnson the edge in the game @ Skidmore.  A tie in the game @ Trinity (KJ-18 points, 7 boards...TR 16 points, 10 boards). And Rhoten gets the edge in the playoff game as well (TR 30 points, 15 boards...KJ 18 points, 6 boards).  So Rhoten did outplay Johnson more than the reverse.  I know Wes won all of those games, but that had more to do with Mills scoring 39 in the playoff game and 32 his senior year.  And Johnson barely led the league in scoring his senior year...by 0.1 points over Rhoten his senior year and just over a point his junior year when Rhoten was a freshman.  \
But keep in mind, I think Johnson was a great player.  Awkward looking shot, but amazingly accurate...no surprise that he is the school's all time leading scorer.  Which barring disaster Rhoten is about to become tonight as well.
And Cohen is the next best big man in the NESCAC.  Haven't seen Stone yet this year, but he looked very young last year...not even close to Rhoten, Cohen, Stovell or Kelly last year. 

[JeffRookie2]

Just because Rhoten doesn't play in the post doesn't mean he isn't a 'big man.' He does play the 4 or 5 for the Bants, and he guards the 4s and 5s from other teams. Nowitzky is one of the best 'big men' in the NBA, but he plays more the style of a three. Chris Webber doesn't operate primarily in the post and yet he is still considered a 'big man.' So I don't think Rhoten's style of play should preclude him from consideration. Also, how about including Tucker Kain in this conversation?

[ChesterGreen]

I tried to be clear in my use of 'traditional big men' for of course Rhoten is one of the best if not the best 4-5 man in the league but he's not a traditional big man just as neither Nowitzky or Webber are.  Rhoten within his system does not have to score primarily with his back to the basket that would be an ineffective way of using him given his quickness and ability to shoot from the outside.  And I did forget to include Kain who was a great 4-5 man although not in the traditional sense.  Its that I think any of the non traditional big men don't stack up to the traditional ones its just that traditional post play seems to be a lost art so one just points out those who are capable and comfortable playing that role.

Formerbant- you touched on it, Trinity never beat Wesleyan with Rhoten against Johnhson which is why I don't think he was ever out played him or he would of got the W, stats mean little without wins to go with it, thats why those with the best stats don't necessarily get the most recognition ie Schiel winning player of the year over Rhoten, Kain, and Stovell.  Thats like saying a guy like Crotty or Coffin got out played most games because some one on the team had better numbers which I'm sure both Johnson and Rhoten had many nights. 

[formerbant10]

If you say stats don't mean anything without the wins, then Johnson doesn't get talked about at all.  He never made it past the NESCAC semifinals.  Rhoten has, Schiel has, Kain has, Coffin has.  Rhoten has better stats and more wins.  Not sure what you're going to argue about him next...maybe Johnson has nicer sneakers.
And as I said before, if not for Mills in most of those games, not Johnson, Wes wouldn't have won.

[Red1]

The score says they only won by six. How did that happen? Was Bowdoin playing well or did Bates lose interest?

Um...the score was 88-62.  That's a difference of 26, not 6.  A 26 point win is pretty solid, and whould show no lack of interest from a dominant Bates team.  I don't kow where you saw anything different, but I was at the game, and the score was definitely 88-62, a 26pt. win.

Cheers,
Red1

[Oak12]

Got to chim in on this.

A dominant Bates Team?  I saw Bates at Endicott a couple weeks ago and they were anything but dominant.  Endicott played tough, shot horribly and beat them.  Granted Endicott is a good team, if Bates is dominance the season is looking up for the Endicott Gulls!  Endicott is learning a new system and struggling with it.

Bates shaky at best.  Lot of work to get to the next level.

[walzy31]

Formerbant10,

Haha, Kanem defintely had nicer kicks than Rhoten. I wouldnt trade Schiel for Rhoten because he isn't a three point threat, takes too many shots, and turns the ball over. Schiel had his faults as well...I wish he rebounded (and dunked
) a little more but his career was exceptional.
Rhoten and Schiel=great players
amherst=really really deep
wesleyan=will now be referred to as Wes (or Wesleyan) Tech in future posts.

[JeffRookie2]

The score says they only won by six. How did that happen? Was Bowdoin playing well or did Bates lose interest?

Um...the score was 88-62. That's a difference of 26, not 6. A 26 point win is pretty solid, and whould show no lack of interest from a dominant Bates team. I don't kow where you saw anything different, but I was at the game, and the score was definitely 88-62, a 26pt. win.

Cheers,
Red1

Huh, I don't know what happened there. Must have accidently gotten it mixed up with another score. Sorry.

[nescachoopsfan]

big news as far as the nescac goes tonight.  tufts delivers keene state their first loss of the season up at keene.  tufts had control in the first half up by 14 at then end of the first session, but the keene press got tufts a little ruffled and forced bad shots and keene state was on fire.  amazing shooters for keene allowed them to make a comeback.  but tufts held on with clutch free throw shooting at the end and a big steal from jeremy black on keene's best player david sontag basically sealed the game and gave tufts a 3 point win.  hopefully this is a good sign for the nescac and definetly a good sign for tufts as they got embarrased by plymouth state on tuesday.  its tough to travel all the way up there on a weekday and beat keene one of the best teams in new england.  pretty impressive win for the nescac

[nescachoopsfan]

and by the way i dont know if anyone noticed, but david shepherd tufts starting point guard was named to the d3hoops.com national team of the week for last week.  he has really stepped up for the jumbos and is becoming a leader and one of the top players in the nescac.