MBB: NESCAC

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Nice piece on the Amherst-Williams rivalry on ESPN.com yesterday.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2945751&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab5pos2

[uaapride]

Does anyone else find it mildly surprising the lack of success Trinity has had in the NCAAs. Every year, it appears that they have comparable talent to teams like Amherst, yet never seem to make any type of noise in the playoffs. I understand that this past year they had the unfortunate pairing of Brandeis in the first round, but they still can't seem to 'win the big one', or even get to an Elite Eight. Does this rest on the shoulders of Ogrodnik? I see frequent critiques/debates regarding Hixon and Paulson, but why is Ogrodnik never mentioned? While I admit I am not familiar with Trinity's accomplishments in the 90's (although I do know they made a final four in '95), it seems to me that recently at least, he's had the talent, yet never is able to win when it really matters. For example, TRINITY HASN'T MADE THE NCAA QUATERFINALS SINCE 1999!!!!!!! Compare that to Amherst, who has had very comparable talent over the last 5-7 years. Is he just a great recruiter who fails to properly prepare his team for big games? Granted he has a great all-time coaching record, but when you consider alot of the teams in the New England region and the caliber of player Trinity can bring in considering less stringent academic standards than the Williams, Midd, Bowdoin, Amherst's of the world, its nothing to write home about. Am I being overly critical, or is it time for Ogrodnik to go?

[walzy31]

i think you are walking the line between being overly critical and being disappointed with trinity's finish to seasons. trinity has had immense talent the past 5-7 years and hasnt gone deep into the NCAAs. i do think you are going a little too far with saying Ogrodnick has to go. this is the NESCAC. coaches dont consistently win 18 games a year and get shown the door for lack of elite 8 or final 4 appearances. in fact, coaches who consistently win 10 games dont get shown the door either.
I will peg trinity's faltering at making a run in the NCAAs to a few things:

1) Almost every year trinity has made the dance in the past 5-7 years they have been the 3rd seed coming from the NESCAC (behind amh and wil)...which gives them a poorer draw.

2) this year their first round match up was the toughest first round match up in the country. one very good team that deserved a sweet 16 or elite 8 trip was going to go down (ironically deis didnt make it to the sweet 16 either...credit RIC).

3) they get snubbed from the NCAAs more than any other team in NE.

but they have graduated a lot of talent the past 3 years in halas, rhoten, pat martin and kino clarke. we will see how russ and the rest of the bants do this winter. i dont have them winning 20 regular season.

[nescac hoops]

uaapride,

may i ask what uaa team you support? or all of them? while the nescac and the uaa are arguably the best two conferences in the nation, when it comes tourny time the uaa teams have the benefit of being put into different regions given the variety of geographic locations - ex. brandeis and wash u. we all know how the ncaa likes to keep teams in their area for money reasons. and like walzy said, trinity often finishes third in the conference behind two teams in the same region that have a combined two national championships  and have made a combined 5 final four appearances in the last 5 seasons. thus, they don't get a great draw or the respect they deserve for finishing 3rd in a conference and often have to play on the road for the entire tournament. in the case of the uaa, the third place team may be from a different region and get the benefit of not having to be in the same bracket as other uaa teams.

[Agent_Zero]

the other team in the opening brandeis classic is kenyon. so the four teams are tufts, bridgewater state, brandeis, and kenyon.

[mrmike88]

Don't get carried away, guys, with this NESCAC/UAA are the two best conferences argument - I think our friends in the WIAC and the CCIW might have a counter-argument.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Don't get carried away, guys, with this NESCAC/UAA are the two best conferences argument - I think our friends in the WIAC and the CCIW might have a counter-argument.

And a pretty good one, at that.

[nescac hoops]

Don't get carried away, guys, with this NESCAC/UAA are the two best conferences argument - I think our friends in the WIAC and the CCIW might have a counter-argument.

And a pretty good one, at that.

my bad, i meant to say "two OF the best conferences". obviously the midwest has some great basketball but i was also somewhat speaking in more general terms...


NCAA Div. III Top Ten Directors' Cup Finishers

1. Williams – 1,137.5

2. Middlebury – 1,064.50

3. Cortland State – 892.75

4. Amherst – 887.25

5. Washington Univ. (MO) -- 845

6. TCNJ -- 797

7. Wisc. La Crosse – 718.75

8. Calvin -- 713

9. Emory – 694.50

10. Johns Hopkins -- 686.25

[uaapride]

I understand that my post can be taken out of context, but here's basically my point. Unlike the Williams, Amherst, Midd, and Bowdoin, Trinity athletic coaches really don't have to work overly hard at recruiting. They basically get all the kids who couldn't get into the above mentioned schools, who are usually very talented at basketball. This isn't to disrespect Trinity, but lets call a spade a spade. No one on this planet would pick Trinity over Williams or Amherst (if they are mildly intelligent and realize superior academic schools). Thus, Ogrodnik basically will get the leftovers at Williams and Amherst, (by far the best 2 of the bunch academically) along with all the kids who wouldn't be able to get into any Nescac school without athletic ability... Thanks to the less stringent academic standards, Trinity benefits by having to select from a MUCH wider talent pool than Amherst or Williams (or even UAA schools like Wash U). Even with this given advantage, Trinity basketball has failed to capitalize. How is it that year after year Trinity has AT LEAST equal talent to Amherst and Williams, yet can't do anything at all in the NCAAs.  I understand your point walzy31, but 18-20 win seasons should be expected from an upper level NESCAC school. The New England region is extremely weak on average (with the exception of a few great schools, the majority of schools in New England are pretty weak in terms of basketball talent). Amherst has gone far in the NCAAS for the last 4-5 years, while Trinity has NOTHING to show for itself. That's just embarrassing. They clearly have had the talent (Rhoten, Halas, Kino, Martins) the last 4-5 years having beaten Amherst twice and have nothing at all to show for it except early NCAA exits. A rabid monkey could coach the Trinity basketball team with the level of talent that they have and have done just as well as Ogrodnik. They honestly have nothing to show for all this talent, except for the expected 18-20 win seasons

[formerbant10]

They basically get all the kids who couldn't get into the above mentioned schools, who are usually very talented at basketball. This isn't to disrespect Trinity, but lets call a spade a spade. No one on this planet would pick Trinity over Williams or Amherst (if they are mildly intelligent and realize superior academic schools). Thus, Ogrodnik basically will get the leftovers at Williams and Amherst, (by far the best 2 of the bunch academically) along with all the kids who wouldn't be able to get into any Nescac school without athletic ability

There may be some people who take great offense to those statements reading this board.....well at least attempting to read seeing as though they were unable to get into Amherst/Williams.

[dman]

formerbant,
  do you want the roast duck with the mango salsa?

[uaapride]

Sorry formerbant, I've never been the PC type. I just don't think that anyone would take Trinity over Amherst or Williams if they had gotten into either one of those schools.

[senatorfrost]

 I can name 2 schools from a VERY!! academically oriented conference (not NESCAC) that have each taken in at LEAST one basketball player /student/athlete with SAT scores of less than 1000.
  While it is somewhat likely that Trinity gets a player or two that Amherst or Williams can't take, it is even more likely that Trinity takes players away from Bowdoin and Middlebury. Remember that Bowdoin and Middlebury do NOT require SAT scores. So when either of them take a student/athlete with say 1050 on the SAT's, they probably have alternate and more subjective standards that they use. Meantime the 1050 does not get figured into the SAT stats that they give out to U.S. News because the 1050 score was never officially submitted.
   It's my best guess that Trinity is no 'better' or 'worse' than any of the other schools in NESCAC, with the exception of Amherst and Williams.

[uaapride]

I'm with you Senator, I can totally see that happening. I also find it important to note that Amherst and Williams are indeed the exception.

[formerbant10]

Dman,

No thanks, I don't have much of an appetite.

But I will just go back to inventing the wheel and standing upright...things of that nature.