MBB: NESCAC

[blacklordjeff]

Nescac Hoops,

I'm gonna have to agree with fpc on this one.  the '04 ephs played more because there was no talent in front of them, the '08 senior class at Amherst had big time talent in front of them.  Also, the fact that Williams lost on a last second shot and the Jeffs got beat by 20 doesn't make the Williams team better.  Anyone who watched the game Saturday knows that that game got ridiculous at the end when the Jeffs starting jacking threes and WashU was perfect from the line.

But either way both teams were great and I forget who mentioned it but a Williams-Amherst Alumni Game would be a great idea.  I think it could be a great fundraiser for a charity or something, anybody interested in making this happen?  I'd work on it with someone, let me know

[nescac hoops]

Nescac Hoops,

I'm gonna have to agree with fpc on this one.  the '04 ephs played more because there was no talent in front of them, the '08 senior class at Amherst had big time talent in front of them. 

That doesn't change the fact that Amherst '08 (aside from Olson) wasn't really responsible for getting their team to the Final 4 their freshman year unless you think that as freshman they could have led them there but just didn't because of the talent in front of them. Or, on the other hand, that Abba/Coffin/Crotty should have been able to lead their team to the Final 4 as freshman. Besides, Coffin/Abba really didn't see a ton of time, especially Coffin. That extra Final 4 appearance is the only real remarkable difference b/t the two classes along with overall record of 112-11. Again, I can't give too much credit to Hopkins/Jones/etc. for the record accumulated during their first two seasons. When you look at the last two seasons when all players involved were really starting/contributing they are quite even and perhaps a slight edge to Williams '04 (see holy cross win, 2 NESCAC championships, and overall number of losses). The Williams '04 only consisted of 4 guys, one of whom was Blake Morgan who was perhaps the most talented of them all but had 2+ ACL/MCL injuries and never could really play and makes arguements like the following pretty hard b/c of the sheer number of players of Amherst '08...

i am sure most would agree that goldsmith/hopkins/walters/jones is more talented than any combination that includes coffin/abba and whoever else not named crotty.

You are comparing four post players (maybe not Walters) against Coffin (who is better than all of those players) and a guard (Abba) that shot 46% from three, 49% from the field and the third leading scorer on that team, and was a lock-down defender/rebounder. Abba may not have had as much talent as a guy like Walters but he sure did get the job done just the same.

[fpc85]

That doesn't change the fact that Amherst '08 (aside from Olson) wasn't really responsible for getting their team to the Final 4 their freshman year unless you think that as freshman they could have led them there but just didn't because of the talent in front of them.

the went to the final four the last 3 years. to me that is the kicker if you are talking about success. In terms of talent, Abba was very good and I am not trying to discredit him or the rest of the ephs in any way... I just think if you look at talent the '08 jeffs had more. i think it is great to have classes like the '04 ephs and the '08 jeffs to talk about. I wonder what school will have the next great class. btw, the '07 jeffs were just as good.

[nescac1]

Turning from the past to the future, lots of HUGE holes for various NESCAC teams to fill ... thoughts on the biggest?

Obviously, Amherst: Olson is irreplaceable but Meehan looks as up to the task as can be asked for, and they have lots of depth at point with Carcieri (is he hurt or something?), Wong, Bradley.  The bigger question is who steps in up front.  Is Bennett ready?  Can Holsey become a scorer?  Someone posted that Hixon said they may start two frosh next year?  I imagine one is Waller if he is indeed attending ... (is Wheeler seriously injured, by the way?)

Trinity: Taylor, Dunn and Martin are huge holes up front.  Who steps in to provide Trinity with an inside presence?  

Williams: Rose / Weisbrot are big losses at the four, but Whittington and Dodson looked very promising as frosh and both have all-league type talent if they develop, plus there is Timmins, Meyer, and incoming frosh Emerson.  If two of those five step up, Ephs will be very strong inside assuming Geoghegan continues to improve.   The bigger question is Shalvoy, who ran the point for nearly four years ... Golia is more of a back-up type but is a seasoned veteran, and incoming frosh Marcus Wells will likely get a chance to win the job if he is as good as reported.  Ephs will really need someone to take control at the point if they hope to bounce back next year ... but they arguably have the most talented front court in the conference.    

Conn College: probably the biggest question mark, who steps in for Stone as the centerpiece of the offense?  Plenty of perimeter guys return, but he was basically the entire inside presence for that team.

Bowdoin: they lose a lot of firepower.  HIppert is the most replaceable as they played well in his absence this year, plus bring in some strong perimeter recruits, in particular shooter Ryan O'Connell who will battle Wells and the Amherst frosh as the early favorite for conference ROY.    Fliegle and Sargeantson are big losses on the inside, leaving Phillips as the only experienced big guy on the roster.  If he can't carry the load, Bowdoin might return to earth next season.  

Bates: who steps in for Wholey?  Otherwise the Bobcats are in pretty good shape.  

Tufts: Weitzen, Black et. al. are big losses ... Tufts really needs a strong recruiting class after bringing in only two guys last year, neither of whom played much as frosh.  

With all the talent lost in the league, at least there should be a lot less controversy over all conference team next year.  I'd say Baskauskas, Pierce, Choice, Geoghegan, Harris / Rudin, K. Jackson, Bernier, Wheeler, and B. Ellis are the top returning guys, in no particular order.  Baskauskas should put up HUGE numbers next year as he finally gets to be the offensive centerpiece on Amherst. 

[nescac1]

I think this discussion gives a little more credit to the Williams class of 04 than they deserve, and not enough to the guys around them.  The class of 2003 with Folan, Bhat, DeMuth and Fitzgerald was pretty much the equal of the Amherst class of 2007 (each had two big-time contributors and two solid role players), and I'd say the class of 2005 with Cole, Graham, and Kain is marginally better than the Amherst class of 2009, with Baskauskas, Holsey, and the guards who haven't really played much.  Granted, in 2006 Amherst had Bedford / Casnocha, but when you are comparing the two championship game years for each team (03/04 for Williams, 07/08 for Amherst) the supporting casts were pretty much equivalent. 

[walzy31]

Every time March twenty-something rolls around each year, Williams fans come out of the woodwork to talk about March twenty-something 2003 and March twenty-something 2004.

[nescac1]

Fair enough, Walzy ... but let's see what Amherst fans are talking about next March (prediction: it won't be an Amherst appearance in the 2009 final four). 

[walzy31]

You are right that Amherst fans have not had to live in the past the past five years. It has been nice.

In 2012, it would be one thing for me to sit in my house and daydream for ten minutes (or twenty) about 2007 and how great it was. That would probably be a safe bet. But I don't think the NESCAC forum will see me pit Olson, McLaughlin, O'Shea, Baskauskas and Wheeler versus five kids that are in high school right now who end up going to a school other than Amherst.

I'll cut all the posters slack since ESPN is to blame for injecting the idea in people's minds anyway. "Who is the best team of all time, '72 Dolphins, '95-'96 Bulls, '80 USA Hockey Team or the  '04 USC Football team?"
Well crap ESPN...I think the Dolphins would beat the Bulls in football, the gold medal winners would run the table in hockey, USC Football would win a track meet, and the Bulls would not lose in basketball.

One similarity missed between those two teams:
Stevens Point in 04-05 is similar to Wash U 08-09 in that the Bears could win it all next year.

I also agree with the other Amherst posters on this forum about next year's Amherst team. Maybe they don't run through the regular season with only 2 or 3 losses, but they have a whole lot of experience winning NCAA games (12-2 not counting consolation game...12-3 counting consolation game) and will be a top team in the NESCAC.

[ephoops]

Every time March twenty-something rolls around each year, Williams fans come out of the woodwork to talk about March twenty-something 2003 and March twenty-something 2004.

Lighten up...

It's a discussion board.  Now that the season is over, it's interesting to debate teams / classes from different years.

Amherst '08 had an incredible run, as did Williams '04. 

There's a lot of time to fill before next season starts...

[nescac hoops]

Every time March twenty-something rolls around each year, Williams fans come out of the woodwork to talk about March twenty-something 2003 and March twenty-something 2004.

I'll cut all the posters slack since ESPN is to blame for injecting the idea in people's minds anyway. "Who is the best team of all time, '72 Dolphins, '95-'96 Bulls, '80 USA Hockey Team or the  '04 USC Football team?"
Well crap ESPN...I think the Dolphins would beat the Bulls in football, the gold medal winners would run the table in hockey, USC Football would win a track meet, and the Bulls would not lose in basketball.

Yeah, you're right Walzy! Making comparisons like that is for idiots

It's now official: Olson had a better career than Crotty. Even if Amherst fails to make it to the final four, I still give it to Olson. Let the debate begin...or should I say resume?

I agree. Olson will finish about 50 assists shy of Crotty's career total, and that can be chaulked up to not playing that much of the first 10-12 games of his freshman year. Their points total will be very close. They both went to two final fours (Olson has this year left) and won one national championship. Olson has twice been nescac player of the year, twice been sectional MVP, and was named MVP of the final four.

[La Verdad]

I can't really weigh in on who was better between the '04 ephs and '08 jeffs seeing as how I am extremely biased in favor of my roommates and never saw the 04 ephs, but I will respond to this statement...

My issue with Amherst fans arguing that Walters/Hopkins/Olson/Jones were better than Crotty/Abba/Coffin for the sake of an overall 4 year record of 112-11 and an additional final 4 appearance is the following: aside from both Crotty and Olson, none of the other players were real contributers/starters/etc. until their junior seasons. Why do players like Hopkins, Jones, Walters get "credit" and deemed "better" for arriving on campus to players like Bedford, Schiel, etc. who brought them to the final 4 and accumulated great record over the Amherst class of '08's first two seasons, while aside from Olson, none of them were real contributers.

If I remember correctly, there were two members of the distinguished class of '08 that played major roles during their sophomore season.  1. Olson  2. Goldsmith

Why no love for Goldy these days?  First Clinchy leaves him out of the Amherst seniors article, now nobody remembers his soph campaign.  Where is senatorfrost when you need him?  Goldy played in 32 games that year and averaged 15 minutes a game.  He was a huge part of the team and was destined for big, big things till a broken leg knocked him out for his entire jr. year.  Imagine how good the '08 class would have been if Goldy had been healthy all 4 years.

I don't know if that changes the discussion; I just wanted to give Goldy some well deserved love.

[formerbant10]

I'll cut all the posters slack since ESPN is to blame for injecting the idea in people's minds anyway. "Who is the best team of all time, '72 Dolphins, '95-'96 Bulls, '80 USA Hockey Team or the  '04 USC Football team?"
Well crap ESPN...I think the Dolphins would beat the Bulls in football, the gold medal winners would run the table in hockey, USC Football would win a track meet, and the Bulls would not lose in basketball.

This is absurd...everyone knows the '85 Bears were much, much better. 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[ephoops]

I'll cut all the posters slack since ESPN is to blame for injecting the idea in people's minds anyway. "Who is the best team of all time, '72 Dolphins, '95-'96 Bulls, '80 USA Hockey Team or the  '04 USC Football team?"
Well crap ESPN...I think the Dolphins would beat the Bulls in football, the gold medal winners would run the table in hockey, USC Football would win a track meet, and the Bulls would not lose in basketball.

This is absurd...everyone knows the '85 Bears were much, much better. 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Formerbant10

Your bias for the Bears is showing...   Papa Bear would be proud...    

[fpc85]

I'll cut all the posters slack since ESPN is to blame for injecting the idea in people's minds anyway. "Who is the best team of all time, '72 Dolphins, '95-'96 Bulls, '80 USA Hockey Team or the  '04 USC Football team?"
Well crap ESPN...I think the Dolphins would beat the Bulls in football, the gold medal winners would run the table in hockey, USC Football would win a track meet, and the Bulls would not lose in basketball.

This is absurd...everyone knows the '85 Bears were much, much better. 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

i think the '86 giants could take them all...simms was so much better than mcmahon.

[frank uible]

The '48 Browns and the '29, '30 and '31 Packers.