MBB: NESCAC

[formerbant10]

Red 1....I don't believe that a kid with a 2.4 gpa could get into Princeton w/o athletics.  But then times have changed.  I know for a fact that each Ivy league Basketball player must meet a certain standard and that each recruiting class must also meet a standard.  No player can fall below a certain point level (SAT's, GPA, SAT 2's....all added together) and the incoming class must be at a level much higher than the lowest possible.  I really find it hard to believe (doesn't mean it can't happen) that someone with a 2.4 got in.  I'd like to see his transcript.  And as I said before, every school lets in kids that are subpar academically.  Grades aren't the only thing schools care about, there are many other factors in the admissions process. 

But to be honest, I really don't care about this argument anymore....sorry that I had to get my last word in.

Here would be my All Nescac

1st Team:
Tyler Rhoten
Rob Stockwell
John Bedford
Drew Cohen
Chris Rose

2nd Team:
Zak Ray (Stockwell had better numbers this year)
Dan Martin
Kyle Petrie
Kino Clarke
Andrew Olson

Player of the Year: Rhoten (Lifetime Achievement Award as well)
Defensive Player of the Year: Cohen (Come a long long way from High School)
Coach of the Year: Reilly (Another Bant getting an award)
Rookie of the Year: Rudin (Can't believe a kid from Scarsdale is that good)

[formerbant10]

According to a poster on the TOP 25 Board, Amherst has been in the top 25 for 59 consecutive weeks.  62 is the all time record.  I don't think Amherst should have trouble reaching and surpassing that.

That's quite amazing in my eyes.

[senatorfrost]

 Surprising that folks from Williams have trouble with the written word. I never said 96-97 and 98 were luck. I said straight out that I thought the Williams teams were better those years. 04 has been covered. In 03 a crippling hamstring injury slowed Fitzsimons. He had started the year looking better and quicker with the ball than he ever had-He was resigned to playing about 10 minutes less per game and was not as quick as when the season began.
Zieja had something wrong the whole year. It seemed to get worse and in the las t game with Ephs (Lunch Pail) Coffin held him to four shots. I will be the first one to admit that Coffin did the best job on Zieja and if you folks want to believe that he held him to four shots because he was super-go right ahead. Of course being associated with a place like Williams you might want to take a look back at the other games where they faced each other. You will see that while Zieja could not score at will v Coffin but that he had many good games. Of course if believing that the gutty effort of Coffin was responsible for the four shots, and that Zieja was healthy is what makes you happy-Well then you go right on believing it.
You might also R-E-A-D what I Actually wrote. I talk about two years as being "Heaven Sent" If you don't like to hear this version of happenings back then, you shouldn't come on here and boast about how Amherst was dumped by the Old Ephs in every key game. Injuries are part of the game. I know that. One difference between me and the Eph fans is I have no problem or trouble saying that it appears that Amherst was maybe a little lucky last year in the final battle with Trinity. Meantime no one from Amherst has said anything negative about Trinity and their players or their coach.
I will also add that there were plenty of Anti Hixon comments two years ago. Amherst players were questioned as to courage and character. I do remember that Harper was the one who was singled out as being 'good' or words to that effect. You can call me revisionist or anti Eph or Chauffer Driven-doesn't matter. I will always consider those two year 03 and 04 as Heaven Sent for Williams.

[senatorfrost]

 Hopefully there will be no more negativity from anyone including myself. Anyway, I still think Amherst and Trinity will sweep. I have to think that the loss to the Ephs was just one of those down days and that Trinity will rebound.
As far as admissions are concerned keep in mind that a lot of times a school rejects a student athlete AFTER they know He/She is not coming. Thus a coach would not be technically lying if He/She said "Yeah Amherst took him but admissions here didn't like him. They rejected him and he scored 1380 and was top 5%. It's really tough here"

[JeffRookie2]

I actually think the 'Hixon might have extra pull in the admissions office" might make sense, seeing as he was recently (either this year of the year before) named co-AD. (It is my understanding that this is a temporary situation.) He is also an Amherst grad and has been coaching here for a very long time. He most likely has a very good relationship with the folks down at the admissions office.

The one other thing I would like to say before we can hopefully end this Amherst-Williams mudslinging which tends to pervade this forum from time to time, is that general attitude at Amherst towards the athletics program in general amongst nearly everyone but the coaches and players is very close to disdain. Amherst is simply not the athletics-crazy atmosphere that Williams is (for better or for worse), and because of that I think it is likely that the admissions people are getting more heat from Tony Marx and others to make as few academic exceptions as possible than they are from the coaching staff to do the opposite. And I personally know several recruited football players with SAT scores of over 1400. (and i dont really know that many of the football player's SAT scores, so it must be a decent percentage)

[JeffRookie2]

Oh and here are my all-conference teams:

1st Team:

Pg:Zak Ray
SG:John Bedford
SF: Chris Rose
PF: Dan Martin
C: Tyler Rhoten

2nd team:

PG:Andrew Olson
SG:Stockwell
SF:Petrie
PF:Stone (they always throw in somebody from a bad team)
C:Drew Cohen

POY:Rhoten (cant deny him twice... the only way i think bedford has a chance is if Amherst beats trin in the tourny and bedford seriously outplays ty)
DPOY:Cohen (duh)
COY:Reilly (nobody saw the bobcats being this good)

[formerbant10]

JeffRookie, you forgot Rookie of the year.

And also, Petrie and Cohen are not on the best of teams either...so Stone may not see that 2nd team spot.  Plus he missed a few games as well.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

So is Amherst looking past Lasell to Bates?  I think this is a potential slip-up for them if they aren't giving the Lasers their full attention.  Lasell hasn't been up to their recent standards this season, but they are still very talented.  I'm not saying its going to happen, but overlooking this road game could be trouble for Amherst, especially with so many NESCAC teams bunching up for at-large bids.  They need to preserve their record and their QOWI number.

[fpc85]

Hoops,

The Jeffs will be ready to roll.
They usually dont ovelook opponents. I know the team is pumped up to have a stellar week. The team played well over the weekend and appear primed for the post season.

[blacklordjeff]

It's been awhile fellow NESCAC fans, looking to get back into the debate.  let me share some inside insight on a couple of issues that are about finished.

one, we, meaning Amherst, did have serious injury issues in 03 and 04.  Zieja, who is by far the guttsiest (sp?) player I've ever played with, was playing injured since Day 1 at Amherst.  If there are any comic book people out there, they'll feel this comparison.  Zieja is like the Marvel Comic Book Character Cable.  Cable had the most power of just about anybody, but he caught a disease early on that limited him.  Even with the disease he was arguably the most powerful hero ever, but can you imagine how he would have been without that disease?  Well Steve is the same way, he carried the program on his back for years and I wonder what he would have carried us to if he had two good knees.  God has a funny plan sometimes.  Speaking of which, I still lose sleep thinking about the 04 nat'l semi final.  But injuries are part of the game and EVERY team has some luck that helps them out, congrats to those Williams team, I'd love to have a reunion game in a couple years...

And onto the Admissions stuff, everyone who gets in, is qualified, SATS do matter, and good athletes are rejected all the time because they aren't good enough students (I know someone who works in Admission, wink wink).  At schools like Amherst and Williams, you are setting folks up to fail if you let folks in who aren't qualified.

Now to the current season.  Amherst hasn't played their best ball yet.  Which is what makes me think they can make a deep run into the post season, if not win it all.  They still have some gelling to do.  When it happens (if it happens) it could get ugly.

Here are my awards
First Team

Bedford
Rhoten
Cohen
Ray
Olson

Second Team
Rose
Petrie
D. Martin
Stockwell
Wheeler

These are a little Amherst heavy, but much like the Pistons, if the argument is that we have a great team, put those great team players on the Allstar team.

POY:Bedford (I just love this guys heart, will to win, and talent on both ends of the court, I think Rhoten doesn't have to play enough defense.  Not necesarily a bad defensive player, just can be exposed by a strong big man.  Bedford can check four maybe even five positions in the NESCAC.  I think that puts him over the top.)
DPOY:Cohen
Rookie:  Don't know enough to make a call
Coach: Hixon (has a lot of talent to make work, it's an embarrasment of riches on one hand, but also a heckuva task, plus win number 500 this year)

That's it for now, back to the Lord's work

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Um... I know we're all nerds and stuff, but the comic book thing is over the top even for me.  Are you honestly comparing a real person to a comic book character?

[JeffRookie2]

I dont think its right to have both ray and olson on the first team because they are both point guards. I think each team should have a legit one and a legit two. Fooling around with players who could either be 2s or 3s (like bedford) is completely fair game. Thats just my feeling on how the all-conference teams should work.

[formerbant10]

BLJ,

I know your reasons for having an Amherst laden All Nescac team, but right now they are merely tied for first so one can't put them that far ahead of everyone else.  

Trinity has yet to play their best ball either, and I'm sure if they face off it will again be another instant classic as the last 4+ years have been.

To me, it seems like Stockwell is carrying Bates more than Ray.  I'll see for myself this weekend, but anyone who is under 6'6" and grabs 18 boards must be doing something right.  His numbers are better than Ray's and I think he gets first team over Ray.

And I don't agree that Amherst should have 3 guys, Bates 2 and Trinity only 1 when they are all tied for first.  This could all change this weekend, but right now there is no way that Amherst should have 3:1 over the Bants.  Clarke should be on over Wheeler.  Wheeler hasn't done anything spectacular this year.

I see your argument about Bedford's will to win, but I think that Rhoten has made it pretty clear that he is more than willing to do whatever it takes to win games.  No one has as much desire as Rhoten.  Defensively, I think you're overrating Bedford a little bit.  Don't get me wrong and think I'm saying he's a bad player....because that's not even close, I think a helluva lot of John Bedford and his abilities.  He is one of the toughest players on the court at any position, but I can't see him staying with a quicker guy like Ray, Olson, Clarke or a dominant big man like Rhoten, Cohen, or D. Martin.  Saying he can guard 4 or 5 positions is a little much, he can definitely guard 3 though, and pretty well.  

I think it will be tough for him to win POY because Amherst does have a loss in the conference and his numbers do not jump out at you.  I know that he is a winner and steps up just as well as anybody in clutch situations/big games.  But Rhoten's numbers are just as good as any other year and he constantly faces double and triple teams, which no one else in the conference has to deal with night in night out.

As for the Zieja issue, unbelievable talent.  We all knew his knees were holding him back and I can only imagine what he would've done if he were healthy.....how much distance would he have put between him and the rest of the scorers at Amherst?  He was also the toughest matchup for some years.  Very strong down low with great finishing moves, but could really stroke the long ball too.  I saw teams try to guard him with 6 or 7 different players in a game and he scored 32.  Great great player, and a great guy as well.

JeffRookie,

Last year's first team had only one guard and it was Bedford.  The top 5 vote getters get 1st team and the next 5 get 2nd team, regardless of position.

[blacklordjeff]

Formerbant,

You're right, I was probably a bit Amherst biased, hard not to be.  You make great points and I may back off of Dubbs (Wheeler) for second team and slide Olsen into that slot.  I'll also defer to your comments about the Bants, being as how I'm sure you know more than I do.  It'll be an interesting weekend for sure.

And to HoopsFan yes, I did compare a real player to a comic book character.  And for this is definitely NOT out of place in todays  good vs evil sports world.  You must forgive me, I am a preacher by trade and in a lot of ways, one of my biggest duties is to make analogies.  Isn't the point of analgies to compare things that arent inherently similar?  A lunch pail and those three guys at Williams aren't the same. I mean come on, a lunch pail is an inanimate object?!!?  How could you compare the two.  Cut me a little break for trying to be creative.  I thought it worked, two "characters" with great potential who both didn't do as well as they could of because of problems they couldnt control.  Steve is Amhert's all-time leading scorer.  I think he deserves a little over the top praise in a forum that often likes to revisit history.  Now Steve knows that I'd take it to him any day of the week, but he put up the numbers, hehehe.

Looking forward to this weekend and the rest of the season.

[toad22]

In my humble opinion, Steve Zeija was the over-all best Amherst player vs. Williams that I have seen in the last 10 years. He was a great "finisher", a skill that is quite rare, and nearly impossible to neutralize. This year, I view Bedford as the best "finisher" I have seen in the NESCAC. Very dangerous.