MBB: NESCAC

[CCsalive]

Dear Doug Gotlieb wannabees,

Your #1 Camel fan chiming in and requesting some NESCAC predictions for the weekend and for the season.

The Camels have back-to-back NESCAC Player's of the Week in the rookie Porter and the junior Bernier. The two have potential for ROTY and POY, and if you laughed at that then you can sit on your high horse until a Camel knocks you over.

Conn beat Coast Guard last night to improve to 9-4, their 5th win in 6 tries. To quote the Dookie Jeff Bilas, the Camels "shot it from every decal on the floor" and they went in at a staggering clip..."Connecticut College is shooting 59% from three-point range (35-for-59) in its last four games...Bernier is 26 for his last 37 from downtown, a sizzling 70% clip from long distance..Veras is leading the NESCAC in three-point field goal percentage (.571, 20-for-35) and has canned eight of his last nine three-point attempts."

Most of you couldn't go 26 for 37 from the charity stripe let alone 3pt land. Bernier is a HIGH LEVEL player meaning he can take anyone in NESCAC. Shut him down and Veras, Karis, Lampe(sophomore) will light you up to the tune of 50% from 3pt-land. In case your're mounting the boring "live and die with the jumper argument," the 6'5" frosh, Porter, adds a new element to the Camle attack. In many ways he gives CC more than Charles Stone. Porter is quicker to the hoop than Stone, he's a better free-throw shooter (10-14 last night), and he has grasped the Princeton-O quite quickly.

Some of you will no doubt claim that CC is the favorite this Friday vs Trinity. This is preposterous. A win for CC over the Bantams and the chance to split the Amherst-Trinity weekend would be huge for CC. I do believe the Camels will beat Trincoll, but we know this will be challenging.

Out.

[HopeConvert]

As I've said elsewhere, let Williams/Amherst put 11,000 + in an arena, and have nationwide satellite parties to packed bars and then we'll talk. Until then, the claim is risible.

[frank uible]

We NESCACers tend to believe that the sun revolves around a point somewhere in New England, probably in Massachusetts. Of course, this time of year there ain't no sun in New England.

[Pat Coleman]

As I've said elsewhere, let Williams/Amherst put 11,000 + in an arena, and have nationwide satellite parties to packed bars and then we'll talk. Until then, the claim is risible.

Hey, that's my line

[ephoops]

As I've said elsewhere, let Williams/Amherst put 11,000 + in an arena, and have nationwide satellite parties to packed bars and then we'll talk. Until then, the claim is risible.

That's exactly what happens for the annual football game.  

[ephoops]

We NESCACers tend to believe that the sun revolves around a point somewhere in New England, probably in Massachusetts. Of course, this time of year there ain't no sun in New England.

Actually, it's the northwest corner of Massachusetts..   

[ac08]

As I've said elsewhere, let Williams/Amherst put 11,000 + in an arena, and have nationwide satellite parties to packed bars and then we'll talk. Until then, the claim is risible.

According to that ESPN.com feature from '07, the passion for the Jeffs/Ephs rivalry seems comparable. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/story?id=2945751

[HopeConvert]

As I've said elsewhere, let Williams/Amherst put 11,000 + in an arena, and have nationwide satellite parties to packed bars and then we'll talk. Until then, the claim is risible.

According to that ESPN.com feature from '07, the passion for the Jeffs/Ephs rivalry seems comparable. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/story?id=2945751

https://www3.amherst.edu/~sports/current/m-bball/teamcume.htm

Average attendance: 243. Attendance for Williams game: 1521.

Williams seems to be averaging about 300-400 fans a game.

[Gregory Sager]

As I've said elsewhere, let Williams/Amherst put 11,000 + in an arena, and have nationwide satellite parties to packed bars and then we'll talk. Until then, the claim is risible.

According to that ESPN.com feature from '07, the passion for the Jeffs/Ephs rivalry seems comparable. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/story?id=2945751

The ESPN article is basically about the Williams/Amherst football rivalry. There is no Hope/Calvin football rivalry, because Calvin doesn't have a football program.

As the Hope posters here have said, Hope/Calvin is the only rivalry in D3 basketball history that has ever drawn a crowd in five figures for a basketball game (it was for a game held at the municipal arena in Grand Rapids, if I remember correctly). Hope/Calvin is the only rivalry in D3 basketball that has satellite feeds to bars and restaurants so that Hope and Calvin alumni from coast to coast can watch the game.

The rivalry is intensely narrow; after 160 games or so, I think that Hope's currently up by about two wins and forty or so points, and the narrowness definitely adds to the intensity. And while Amherst and Williams have both history and proximity that link them together, so do Hope and Calvin (160 or so games played to date, thirty miles distance between the two campuses) -- plus, the two MIAA schools have a religious and ethnic connection that deepens the rivalry that Williams and Amherst don't share. Both schools are strongly flavored by the Dutch-American population that dominates that part of southwestern Michigan, and they represent the two rival Protestant denominations of Dutch heritage (Reformed Church of America, which is Hope's parent denomination, and Christian Reformed Church, which is Calvin's denomination) that exist in America. Both heavily recruit from the private high schools affiliated with the CRC that dot southwestern Michigan; it's not unusual to see former high school teammates play on opposite sides in the Hope/Calvin games, and because most of the Dutch and Knights players are locally-based (unlike Williams and Amherst), the players know each other and play against each other in summer-league games, pickup games, etc., inspiring an even deeper level to the rivalry for the players themselves.

Hope's DeVos Fieldhouse seats 3,400 fans, and you can bet your bottom dollar that every seat is filled when Calvin is the opponent. Calvin's new VanNoord Arena seats 5,500 (supposedly, although some of the people in the MIAA room say that it's more like 5,000), and I doubt that there will be an empty seat in VanNoord when Hope comes to town.

Two years ago I was at Aurora's Thornton Arena for the first two rounds of the D3 tourney, with Hope playing Chicago in the first game on Friday and Calvin playing the host Spartans in the second game on Friday. Thornton seats 1,500, and easily three-quarters of the packed house on Friday night consisted of Hope and Calvin fans, most of whom made the trek around Lake Michigan to attend the contests. Since both MIAA teams won, I got to see a special, tournament-edition version of Hope/Calvin on Saturday night. I'd say that the two schools drew 1,200 between them -- an amazing total, considering how far from the two campuses the game was being played.

Williams/Amherst is without a doubt a fantastic rivalry. But as far as D3 basketball rivalries go, nothing compares to Hope/Calvin.

[CCsalive]

There was a time when I could ruffle some NESCAC feathers, but we have stooped so low as to debate Protestant Mission statements.

Hope vs. Calvin excites me as much as Oregon vs Oregon St in college football. As Bruce Springsteen so eloquently noted in the intro to The Essential album, "..."one man's coffee is another man's tea, one man's whiskey..."

I've seen some monsterous crowds for SUNY Maritime vs US Merchant Marine of King's Point...but you don't read the Skyline supporter's rants in the Great Lakes page now do you?

Also, I'd like to immediately be promoted to "Starter." I'm sick of being a second-stringer.

Conn 67
Trinity 59

[ephoops]

As I've said elsewhere, let Williams/Amherst put 11,000 + in an arena, and have nationwide satellite parties to packed bars and then we'll talk. Until then, the claim is risible.

According to that ESPN.com feature from '07, the passion for the Jeffs/Ephs rivalry seems comparable. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/story?id=2945751

...Hope's DeVos Fieldhouse seats 3,400 fans, and you can bet your bottom dollar that every seat is filled when Calvin is the opponent. Calvin's new VanNoord Arena seats 5,500 (supposedly, although some of the people in the MIAA room say that it's more like 5,000), and I doubt that there will be an empty seat in VanNoord when Hope comes to town...

Comparing attendance figures between the two rivalries is apples and oranges.

Calvin is located in Grand Rapids.  The Grand Rapids metro area has about 600,000 people.  Over 4,000 students attend Calvin.  Hope is in Holland with over 3,200 students.  The population of Holland is over 35,000 people and the greater Holland metro area has over 250,000 people.  In addition, the interstate highway system in Western Michigan makes traveling to the respective campuses fairly easy.

Williamstown, by comparison, has about 8,000 people.  The student population at Williams is approx 1,800.  Moreover, its an absolute bitch to get to Williamstown, especially in the winter. 

The distance between Hope and Calvin is about 35 miles and takes about 35-40 minutes to drive -- with most of the driving on I-196.  The distance between Williams and Amherst is about 60 miles but it takes about an 1 hour and 45 minutes to drive -- Route 2 in Western Mass is a one-lane winding road that is very slow.  Thus, it's not a convenient drive to travel to the Williams / Amherst game, especially when the game is in Williamstown. 

The population of Amherst, MA is comparable to Holland, MI.  However, only 1,600 students attend Amherst.  In addition, the town of Amherst is dominated by the main campus of U-Mass, with a hoops team that competes in the A-10 and certainly draws a majority of the local fan base.  Hope has no comparable competition for the local fan base in Holland.  Similarly, but to a lesser extent, Calvin is the main collegiate sports draw in Grand Rapids.

Hope / Calvin is a great rivalry.  However, given the history of Williams and Amherst, Hope / Calvin comes in a close second.

[ac08]

Haha. As a board, the most heated debates come when we try to quantify qualities.

[CCsalive]

Conn is a lock to finish in the top-half of the league.
Bernier is a Player of the Year candidate as a Junior.
Porter for ROY.
Satran for Coach of the Year.

[ephoops]

...plus, [Hope and Calvin] have a religious and ethnic connection that deepens the rivalry that Williams and Amherst don't share...   

Greg -- I respectfully disagree.  The religious rivalry between the Infidels of Amherst and the true believers of Williams is quite real and quite fierce...   

[Gregory Sager]

There was a time when I could ruffle some NESCAC feathers, but we have stooped so low as to debate Protestant Mission statements.

We are?

Hope vs. Calvin excites me as much as Oregon vs Oregon St in college football. As Bruce Springsteen so eloquently noted in the intro to The Essential album, "..."one man's coffee is another man's tea, one man's whiskey..."

Bruce Springsteen excites me as much as Oregon vs. Oregon St in badminton.

I've seen some monsterous crowds for SUNY Maritime vs US Merchant Marine of King's Point...but you don't read the Skyline supporter's rants in the Great Lakes page now do you?

That's their fault. Given their aquatic affinities, the folks around the Great Lakes would probably be delighted to hear from the good people affiliated with our seagoing schools.

Comparing attendance figures between the two rivalries is apples and oranges.

The numbers are only part of the story. If numbers were everything, then Ohio State/Michigan would be the most intense rivalry in the country, and that's certainly not clear. That's why I focused upon: a) the satellite parties; and b) the game at Aurora's Thornton Gym. Those aspects of the rivalry have nothing to do with population size, ease of transportation, gym size, or anything like that. Those aspects of the rivalry reflect fervor that is transported far, far away from the two campuses, plain and simple.

Hope / Calvin is a great rivalry.  However, given the history of Williams and Amherst, Hope / Calvin comes in a close second.

That's a nice, self-serving statement, but you have nothing to back it up. Hope/Calvin has that same sort of history, and underlying dimensions of ethnicity, religious affiliation, and player/fan relationships between the two schools that Williams and Amherst don't have.