MBB: NESCAC

[lefrakenstein]

Lots of honors for NESCAC here:

http://bearsports.wustl.edu/womensbball/D3NBestofthe2000s.pdf

conference of the 90's, runner up conference of the 00's, team of the decade (Williams 03) and one runner up (Amherst 07), two of the top five programs and coaches of the decade (guess who), Andrew O. runner up for player of the decade, and top two title games of the decade.  Not too shabby ...

Good find. You would never see that kind of love for the UAA and NESCAC from certain other supposed DIII hoops authorities *ahem, ahem*

I didn't realize that the NESCAC was sending 5 teams a year to the tourny with regularity in the 90's. What happened? Is New England just a stronger region now?

[lefrakenstein]

Nice win for Amherst last night, putting away a previously undefeated squad and shooting over 50% from the floor. Nice defensive effort to hold a team of smaller, quicker guards that usually hurt us to under 40%. Only criticism would be the rebounding, giving up 18 offensive boards while only grabbing 14. Obviously, the shooting %s affect that, but still not as dominant as you would like to see.

Shout out of the game to David Waller for looking to establish himself early and scoring Amherst's first 9 points. For the Jeffs to reach their ceiling, they need Waller to be comfortable as a scorer.

Call out of the game would have to be split by Bennett and Holmes. Bennett played 21 minutes and only grabbed one board, while Holmes had four PFs in 12 min to limit his time. Holmes was very good when he was in though, grabbing seven boards (five offensive) and scoring 6. Got to have your big men grabbing rebounds and staying out of foul trouble.

[amh63]

Just to remind this board, Amherst plays Elms this Friday in the regional tournament.  Should be interesting in that Elms is another smaller quicker team.  Elms is ranked 20th to date.
   Has this BB site software slowed down?  D3hoops have expanded quite a bit the last few years.  Have the site software, handlers been spread to thin in a manner of speaking?   I am pointing this out since my posting count has not changed since this Summer.  I have posted on the football board and the soccer boards and recently on the BB boards.  Yet my board count has not changed.  This may be nit picking from a second stringer, but it would be nice to see some progress towards first string!

[muletrain]

nescac1

Good thing that being good on paper has no relevance since the season has started. I agree with you that during the pre-season, due to last years results, Colby was justifiably put behind Midd, Amherst, and Williams. Since the season has started, however, none of those three teams have the same resume as Colby does. RIC is only having a down year in terms of their record (3-3) but are still very talented with Gray, Mason Choice, and the URI transfer Grimes. RIC's record is misleading with losses to Bridgewater state by 2, Colby obviously, and Roger Williams by 2. I wouldnt be surprised to see the RIC win be a substantial feather in Colby's cap come seasons end. Also UNE is no slouch. They beat Umass Dartmouth and, despite what others have to say, played Bowdoin tight until the last few minutes. Colby DESTROYED them.

It might be hard for the usual nescac royalty (Amherst, Williams) to accept this, but Colby is no longer relying on just a few studs like in the past. This years team is better at almost every position making it possible to beat Amherst (again) at home, while pulling out a tough road win at either midd or williams. Just because Choice is the best player in the league shouldn't take away from this fact.

All this being said this season should be fun because of the parity in the league with everyone accept Conn and Tufts able to beat people day in day out. The CBB games are always great no matter how good each of the schools are in a particular year.

[Old Guy]

Even with their modest record this year, St. Lawrence tomorrow night will be Middlebury's best test to date. Nonetheless, it's hard not to be excited about this Midd team. I will be at a son's high school band concert tomorrow which coincides with the game - I will not sneak out at the intermission, I won't, I won't.

Midd's frontcourt players (Sharry, Locke, Davis, Wholey) are all a year better, with the big guys, especially Sharry, looking very comfortable on the floor. Locke is playing limited minutes, getting in shape (last night, 14 minutes). At times, Panther frontcourt is 6'10", 6'8", 6'6". Sharry has looked terrific: averaging 13 pts (.615 pct); 12-14 from the line; 5-8 from three; 7.6 boards. 3 blocks. He has carte blanche to shoot the three and he hits it. The frosh guards are getting lots of minutes and have looked good. Edwards is back in January.

I played at Middlebury when Al Shaw was the coach at Williams (that's why I'm "Old Guy"). I didn't know him personally, though we met. He certainly had some great teams.

[walzy31]

Has this BB site software slowed down?  D3hoops have expanded quite a bit the last few years.  Have the site software, handlers been spread to thin in a manner of speaking?   I am pointing this out since my posting count has not changed since this Summer.  I have posted on the football board and the soccer boards and recently on the BB boards.  Yet my board count has not changed.  This may be nit picking from a second stringer, but it would be nice to see some progress towards first string!

I guess I will respond since no one else has.
Your post count increases each time you make a post and the change is reflected on all of your posts. A common misconception is that each post is numbered. Whenever you post again, all of your previous posts and your new post will show "76" as your Posts (you have 75 right now). If you click on your user name and then on "Show User's Posts," you can see a chronological listing of all of your posts across all of the forums.

[division3]

thanks for clarifying that walzy for amh63. i would have thought an amherst grad (i assume the school was also quite good in 63) would have figured that out, no? go ephs!!!

[Pat Coleman]

Good find. You would never see that kind of love for the UAA and NESCAC from certain other supposed DIII hoops authorities *ahem, ahem*

You don't think so? I think whenever we discuss power conferences in the past few years the UAA has been on the list, and the NESCAC has been on the list for even longer.

WIAC, CCIW, OAC, UAA, NESCAC ... and I don't think there's anyone else. That's pretty heady company, and the conference has the Walnuts and Bronzes to match.

[Pat Coleman]

I didn't realize that the NESCAC was sending 5 teams a year to the tourny with regularity in the 90's. What happened? Is New England just a stronger region now?

What happened is that there was a 64-team tournament in the mid-90s for a few years, and no automatic bids for some of the leagues that have them now. (Heck, some of the leagues themselves didn't even exist.)

[walzy31]

Welcome back to the NESCAC page PC!

For tomorrow night's game, the line can be found below:

Amherst -5.5 @ Elms
Over/Under: 172.5

[lefrakenstein]

Good find. You would never see that kind of love for the UAA and NESCAC from certain other supposed DIII hoops authorities *ahem, ahem*

You don't think so? I think whenever we discuss power conferences in the past few years the UAA has been on the list, and the NESCAC has been on the list for even longer.

WIAC, CCIW, OAC, UAA, NESCAC ... and I don't think there's anyone else. That's pretty heady company, and the conference has the Walnuts and Bronzes to match.

No ODAC? with Randolph-Mason, Guilford, Hampton-Sydney and Virgina Wes you would think they would be up there.

What about the NCAC with Wooster and Witt or the MIAA with Calvin and Hope?

The CCIW hasn't won a Walnut and Bronze in over a decade, and before that one all they have is the North Park dynasty that most posters on the NESCAC board were barely alive for. The OAC  has two Walnut and Bronzes, but one was back in the early 90s and John Carroll is the only relevant team they currently have. By that standard the MIAA should be a power conference for sure. Granted, the NESCAC and UAA both only have two titles, but they both have two of the last seven. The CCIW I'm sure was a dominant conference in the late 70s and 80s, and I guess the OAC must have been pretty good in the 90s, but they're not at the level of the NESCAC, WIAC or UAA now. So either don't include those conferences or include at least the ODAC and MIAA for starters.

I know I'll take heat for saying this as usual, but in my humble opinion, I do believe this site overvalues teams from the OAC and CCIW in its rankings, and players from those conferences in its awards. I think the fact that with the exception of Tori Davis, the OAC and CCIW were completely blanked from the DIII News Best of the 2000s and 1990s is further evidence of this fact.

And, indeed welcome back to the NESCAC board PC, sorry I always have to give you a hard time.

[lefrakenstein]

For the record, here are all conferences with multiple Final 4 appearances in the aughts along with their results: (records do not include consolation games)

CC 0-3 (3 Finals 4s)
CCIW 0-3 (3 Final 4s)
MIAA 2-1 (2 Final 4s, One Champion)
NESCAC 6-5 (7 Final 4s, Two Runners Up, Two Champions)
NCAC 1-3 (3 Final 4s, One Runner Up)
NJAC 1-2 (2 Final 4s, One Runner Up)
OAC 2-2 (3 Final 4s, One Champion)
ODAC 3-3 (4 Final 4s, One Runner Up, One Champion)
WIAC 5-1 (3 Final 4s, One Runner Up, Two Champions)
UAA 5-3 (5 Final 4s, One Runner Up, Two Champions)

Looks to me like there is a clear top 3 (UAA, NESCAC, WIAC). ODAC is 3rd in number of appearances and has a champion. OAC has the same .500 record as the ODAC, but one less appearance in the championship game. CCIW has the exact same results as the CC, including 0 wins.

Now, I understand the argument that the Midwest and Great Lakes are deeper overall regions, and that is probably true. Certainly that helps explain why the NESCAC has so many appearances. But the NESCAC has also held it's own when it has gotten to the Final 4, even coming a buzzer-beater away from knocking off a UW-SP team you called the greatest you've ever seen. If anything, you would expect battle hardened CCIW and OAC teams to dominate once they got to play teams from other, weaker regions, but a composite 2-5 record doesn't really support that.

I think the only way you can argue that the CCIW is a comparable conference to the UAA or NESCAC is by arguing that it is much deeper. Maybe it is, it's hard to say for sure without many interregional games. Would a Milikin or North Central roll a Tufts or Conn College?  Is Elmhurst a LOT better than Williams or Colby last year? Again, they might have been. But I tend to doubt it.

[Hugenerd]

It is funny you bring this up, because I had a long, drawn-out argument on the multi-regional boards about which conference, the UAA or the CCIW, has been stronger over the past 3 or 4 years.  I was arguing for the UAA and the there were several poster from the Midwest arguing for the CCIW.  What ends up happening is that nobody ever wins the argument, because the CCIW people argue that you cant put too much weight on the top of the conference when considering league strength (for example, WashU's results, postseason results in general) and then even when you present a whole host of other data showing that the UAA has been at least as good, if not better, than the CCIW overall, but has performed exceptionally better in the post-season, they still dismiss that by saying the UAA has an advantage because they have teams in multiple regions and therefore it is easier to have more teams to go to the postseason and have success.  If you want to indulge yourself, you can find it on the multi-regional board (I have to warn you, very little discussion about the NESCAC being one of the top conferences, so if you are easily offended, you may not want to check it out).

[amh63]

Walzy,
  Thank you for responding to my inquiry wrt posting.  It is still puzzling since I had a 74 posting number since last Summer.  I had posted in early Fall on several boards on different days, weeks, etc.....yet my post number remained 74.  I have not really posted since my inquiry and now it is 75.  Interesting tracking/counting software.  Though I am old and studied physics and math in the 60's....old math and have several graduate degrees in engineering from MIT...I admit I am not proficient in the latest software languages. 
  With a smile, I must remind Division3 that when I was at Amherst, Williams did not qualify for a Sigma Xi chapter. 
    When UW-SP won its back to back Div3 National titles in MBB, it did so with the fine coach named B Rein.
The same coach is doing a stellar job at U. of Wisconsin.  Same type of players and game plans in Div. 1 as in Div3.   The midwest schools and the Wisconsin schools are strong.  However, I believe the coaching has dropped a bit after B. Rein left.  When you look at the present coaches, I think you will see where the power has sifted.  The east, south and the UAA have the better coaches and are filling their teams with better players.
    This should start an interesting debate...I hope.

[Hugenerd]

   When UW-SP won its back to back Div3 National titles in MBB, it did so with the fine coach named B Rein.
The same coach is doing a stellar job at U. of Wisconsin.

Bo Ryan was the coach of UW-Platteville, not UWSP, when they won their back-to-back championships in the late 1990s (UWSP won back to back in 04-05), he is now the coach at UW.