MBB: NESCAC

[toad22]

For what it's worth, I've heard Harry Sheehy say that Rehnquist is the best player Amherst has ever produced.

[nescac1]

After further conversations as well, even though I haven't seen them, Sheehy and Garcia Major have to be on the Eph starting five.  I am pretty confident the Ephs would take all comers with ease: a true center in Coffin who can take over a game, two of the best ever NESCAC players (and two guys who had very successful pro careers) at the forward spots in Nogelo and Sheehy, and a dynamic backcourt with one scorer and one distributor in Crotty and Major.  Four guys who can light it up from outside, two incredible passers in Nogelo and Crotty, plenty of rebounding, good enough on defense, that would be a stellar starting unit, featuring five all-Americans.  

Then I'd follow Bill Simmons' suggestion and have a five man defense / pressing unit who would come in and harass the opposing team for five minutes per half, Jim Frew and Jaris Cole at the guards, John Botti, either Mike Humphreys or Manny Benjamin, and Whittington up front, that would not be a fun group to try to score against ...

[TheHerst2and4]

NESCAC1, if I could give karma I'd throw one your way. I like that lineup with a defensive squad coming off the bench.
Jim Frew was one of my all time favorite basketball players to watch growing up. I didn't miss one of his games his senior year at Saint John's.

[senatorfrost]

  Nogelo is the best NESCAC player I've seen. I've heard about Sheehy and Rehnquist and frankly I doubt the both of them. I believe people when they say the two of them were the best in their day but I think I have seen quite a few players who would have been easy D1's in those days. The competition has gotten much keener and players are a lot better and there are many more of them as we've seen.
   I once sat next to a man who played at a Big East school in the early seventies. His team went to the NCAA's but were eliminated in the first round. It was his opinoin that his son who played for a NESCAC team was better than he had been. He said he had played center and that to match him up against the D1 centers at schools like the one he went to would be a total joke. He mentioned a player named Alvan Adams and one named Dave Twardzik and said that if they went to tryout camp today they'd last maybe two days at the most.
 I looked him up and he was telling the truth about where he had played. So then if he's right, and I am sure he is, then Rehnquist and Sheehy simply don't belong. My guess is Nogelo would have been at least a mid major player and most of the others would have been D's and good ones too. It's likely that you can say that Sheehy and Rehnquist were better FOR THEIR TIME than anyone today but imagine who was guarding them. Picture their defenders waddling onto the court with a lot of body fat and feet that dragged.
   Picture an average NBA player from the seventies trying to make an NBA squad today. I find it impossible-it's  ludicrous to even imagine that they could.
 

[ephoops]

My Williams five would be:

Coffin
Sheehy
Nogelo
Crotty
Pidoriano
Major (sixth man)

Artie Pidoriano played at Williams in the early '80s before the 3-pt shot.  Tall, strong, phyical 2-guard who could shoot or take it to the rim

[CWM_42]

I would like to begin by throwing out my take on Bowdoin's best starting five:

G-Dennis Jacobi (1988-92)
G-Kyle Jackson (2005-09)
F-Gregg Fasulo (1974-78)
F-Chris Jerome (1979-83)
C-Joe Williams (1984-88)

No Kyle Petrie??

I have to admit that I saw more of Kyle Jackson than Kyle Petrie, even though they overlapped a bit.  In looking more at the numbers, Jackson leads in games played, but Petrie put up signifcantly more points, rebounds and assists than Jackson during the course of his career.    I could be convinced that Petrie is the better choice. 

Bobo McFarland and Dick Whitmore were certainly Bowdoin's best of the pre 1970s crowd.

[toad22]

Senator Frost:
Boy are you wrong about Harry Sheehy! He was a breath away from the NBA. He had a number of tryouts. Had the 3 point shot been big at that time I think he would have made it. I saw him net 45 against Rhode Island while playing for Athletes In Action.  He had 27 one night againt the Russian National team and he was named the player of the game. He is the all time leading scorer for Athletes in Action, a team that in the late 70's beat the top 3 NCAA teams in a 2 week stretch. He competed against most the the best pros of the era and held his own. He certainly deserves to be on the all Williams team.

[CWM_42]

For what it's worth, I've heard Harry Sheehy say that Rehnquist is the best player Amherst has ever produced.

From my perspective, I agree with Harry Sheehy, Jim Rehnquist was tough.  I've talked with players from other NESCACs of that era and he was feared.

Also on the Amherst front, there were some pretty good teams in the mid-80s with Groff, Cook, etc. 

[senatorfrost]

  No Toad I am NOT wrong. I am perfectly willing to believe that he was absolutely the best of his day in D3 and maybe one of the better low level D1 players. First of all when colleges played athletes in action it used to be a loosely defended chuck'em up affair. The games didn't count and often a player on athletes in action or it's like would look super against a group of younger kids who weren't taking the game nearly as seriously as the elders. The elders as I remember always were real 'teamy'
  Another point and you can sort of check this out-NBA teams used to try and include a local so to speak. They'd draft some waddler from an area team and let him hang around so he and all the other locals could say for the rest of their lives 'Gee Bobby almost made it,' when in reality 'Bobby' had about as much chance as I did of actually playing. I know one team took a guy because of his religion/ethnicity and sat him on the bench for the entire year. He played a few minutes and his ilk would walk around claiming Joey made the pros and technically he did.
   What I am saying is that Rhode Island players from those days might be at some low level D3 team at best and only a few of them at that. Take a LOOK Toad-a good long hard look.
The guy from the Big East school was telling me he could be no better than a so so NESCAC player today.
   Watch an NBA game, and then tell me Harry Sheehy of those days would last more than two days in tryout camp, if even that long. I heard about a lot of players from schools that are now D3 who 'Almost' made or 'Would'a made' etc. The thing was a player like that almost made the local pro team. You never heard about the player from Williams or Rochester almost making the Bulls or the Hawks. Always a local thing. Good PR.
   I also believe he lit it up against the best three teams. 1. Athletes in action were older. 2. Very often the NCAA teams did not take AIA seriously as far as tough defense was concerned. 3. Most of the people in the pros in the mid seventies would be in Europe and not at a top level team. This is reality and once more I believe you that he was the best of his day in even all of D3 if you like. I can assure you that AIA took these games more seriously than the colleges they faced. The colleges knew the games counted for nothing but even with that-players are SOOOOO much better today.

[muletrain]

I am honored and humbled to be mentioned as a potential all crazy candidate.

In regards to my earlier post, I did not try and bash Amherst. In fact, I was trying to give them props...they are very talented. I would doubt that anyone on this board would disagree with that. The reason that I noted their talent was to highlight how Colby had to use their experience and toughness to pull out the win.

Colby is a very tough squad. Any poster can mock this. But can these snide posters answer how a team which only had 7 players get minutes while frequently employing a lineup with a 6'5 center beat a team with a host of division 1 caliber players.

Next, Meehan seemed like he was healthy during the minutes he did play. Unfortunately for Amherst, he did leave the game with about 15 minutes in the game. The score at that point was back and forth. Certainly his absence may have shifted the outcome, but from where I am sitting it looks a lot like an excuse from some grumpy fans.


Lastly, the "haters" out there represent those who did not think that the Colby supporting cast could carry this team out of the middle of the league. I said then, and continue to say that this group around Choice are the type of players that know how to win. I guess the teams record thus far backs this up...

 

[toad22]

Senator:
Your unwillingness to believe that everyone who played before 1990 (or 1980 I'm not sure of your cutoff)was a bozo is perplexing. Sure, players today lift more and are generally stronger. Beyond that, I don't see much difference. I played in the 60s and early 70s and played against many great players who would be just as good today. I played against Ernie D (NBA rookie of the year)and Marvin Barnes (ABA rookie of the year) in summer league games -- they would be just as good today. At Williams, we scrimmaged UMass and Dr J. Are you telling me he wouldn't be able to play today? Many more guys played 2 or 3 sports in those days, so sure, for those guys the modern game would be difficult unless they specialized. But for guys who concentrated on basketball, the game is the game. It hasn't changed that much. There is no question that the recruiting is much more intense in the NESCAC, so generally, the teams, and the league are better. But many individual players from earlier eras would be great today. Harry Sheehy is one of those players. He was the best jumping white guy I have ever seen, with the possible exception of Dave Cowens. He was skinny, but lightning fast 6'5" point guard who could shoot the lights out or penetrate. He could play in any era.

[senatorfrost]

 Okay-Colby is tough. I'll agree. Who is the team with a host of D1 players? Amherst? How do you arrive at that conclusion? Which Amherst player was asked to come to a D1 school? I don't mean visit. Sometimes a player is invited to a D1 school and never gets an offer. I could name several who went to several D1 schools to visit and show their wares. I know one who got no offers and today he NEVER gets off the bench-well maybe a minute here or there. Let's not mix athleticism with level of play, which I think is what you're doing.
So who are these D1 players? Was this a coach talking about the victory and claiming D1 ness for a 'host' of players? Coaches love to deify the opposition. I'm not sure here, but I think it might be so they appear to be great coaches. You think maybe?
    You say Meehan was healthy-Based on what? How he looked in his last game which you didn't see? Based on his game v Williams which neither of us saw? Believe me when I tell you Meehan is a tough kid. He had to be really hurting or really scaring the trainer to be taken out.
    I'm not upset that Amherst lost. What bothered me is how you came on the scene and whether you meant to or not , you gave their character and their effort a little knock so to speak. Be happy you won. If you make the NCAA and Amherst doesn't I will be rooting for you in spite of you.
 

[senatorfrost]

  Ernie D-I read they used to call him Ernie no D. and today he'd be left so far in the dust it would be pitiful. Doctor J-Yes and today there are a thousand Doctor J's. Many almost as good and some better. Don't forget he was one of a kind in his day but today there are a bunch. Can you honestly picture Ernie D guarding ANYONE in the NBA today? That's a joke. Who guarded Doctor J? A lot of waddlers, that's who. The doctor was great for his day but that was a while ago.
   I saw AIA play. A nice group of players-Older than college kids and probably better than they were when in college. Sheehy super quick? I was super quick when guarded by some out of shape elephantine lumberer. Was Harry Sheehy good enough to almost make the pros after many years of AIA? Very possible because a lot of athletes who the pros don't want , play for years and get better. However, by the time they're good enough they're too old. Happened to a friend of mine-A baseball catcher who was a super defensive catcher-home to second in 1.8 or 1.9 consistently but couldn't hit CC pitching.
  He played for years and by the time he was 30 it could be said that if he had been as good at 18 as he was at thirty he most likely would have been drafted in a low round. It sounds like you were better for your day than I was for mine.
Once more take a good LOOK.

[division3]

fellas, fellas, fellas....can't we all get along?

[toad22]

Senator:
All I've been trying to say is that I think, having watched most Williams players since 1967, that Sheehy deserves a place on the all Williams team. I don't think we've had a better point guard since then (with all due respect to Mike Crotty, who I loved as a player). I can agree with you that there are more good players out there now vs 40 years ago. Maybe where we disagree is how good many of the older players were.