MBB: NESCAC

[frank uible]

They may or may not need it, but at any rate it appears that they may be getting it.

[fpc85]

They may or may not need it, but at any rate it appears that they may be getting it.

Can it be called help if you don't need it?

[eclinchy]

Oh, please. Tons of athletes at NESCAC schools need help... no need to get all righteous and defend Amherst's guys.

Saying "some athletes need help" is not the same as saying "all athletes are stupid." Far from it. Nobody's saying the latter. But to imply that 100 percent of athletes at top academic schools like Amherst/Williams/Middlebury/Tufts/wherever else are perfect fits for their schools academically... that's a little bit off.

[nescac1]

Eclinchy, we all know that top NESCAC athletes get tons of admissions help, as they do virtually everywhere.  The question is really how low admissions will go to grab someone they really want, and how many tips are allocated per year to each sport at any given school.  If Amherst had 3 tips per year in hoops versus 2 for Williams (or vice versa), for example, that would be a huge advantage.  The thing is, none of us here have any way to know the answers to those questions, so I see no point in speculating.  It is something to keep in mind when effusively praising one coach's recruiting or criticizing another's --  the fact is, we don't really know what sort of different constraints those coaches may be under from their respective admissions offices.  To take an obvious example, Trinity I would guess could get a lot of squash players through admissions that would not necessarily be a priority for other schools; other schools may prioritize other sports.  At the same time, the squash program at Trinity, like the basketball program at Amherst (and outside of the last few years, at Williams) is so amazingly successful that lots of kids are drawn there over other NESCAC programs who would love to accept them.  And some schools have more TIPS, total, than others (Williams, Amherst and Wesleyan all cap that at 66, others in the league allow a few more I believe).  We've all heard rumors about certain schools making certain concessions certain years, but they are all exactly that -- rumors.  Since we have no way to verify any of them, I would rather leave those sorts of arguments (based only on hearsay) at the door and focus on the caliber of players and teams, rather than likely-specious speculation about unusual admissions concessions. 

[dman]

senator,
  i gave you plus karma for the most coherent thing you've stated in years....very funny and true... ask your friend if the faculty at their school has any voice in the admissions process....i wonder if they even monitor the academic performance of the tipped athlete versus the entire student body...and if the school is moving in the direction of admitting more or fewer student athletes....

[TheHerst2and4]

NESCAC1 I agree that there is no use in speculation, but while the teams are out on Exam/Christmas break coupled with the fact that we don't have a ton to talk about, I'm go gonna ahead and dive in.
I would assume that tips are somehow tied into the class numbers (among other factors). I think a team with more students can hide a potentially lower recruit (by admissions standards) because their stats-SAT and GPA will not have as severe of an effect on the stats that the admissions department cares about so much.
Although, if this were entirely true, it would lead one to believe the biggest schools,undergraduate population-wise, would have the best teams. So I guess my theory goes out the window...anyways food for thought

[Hugenerd]

Oh, please. Tons of athletes at NESCAC schools need help... no need to get all righteous and defend Amherst's guys.

Saying "some athletes need help" is not the same as saying "all athletes are stupid." Far from it. Nobody's saying the latter. But to imply that 100 percent of athletes at top academic schools like Amherst/Williams/Middlebury/Tufts/wherever else are perfect fits for their schools academically... that's a little bit off.

I know for certain that the admissions offices at certain schools, such as Caltech and MIT (there may be others), do not make any concessions to athletes in terms of admissions.  It is considered an extracurricular just like playing a musical instrument.  I know of, first hand, several very qualified student-athletes who were "recruited" to these schools that were not offered admission, both from high school and as transfers.  It also not uncommon for a "recruit" to find out his/her admission decision before the coach and call/inform the coach of that decision.  Coaches at these schools dont get any "picks," because the class size at these schools are generally small (Caltech has classes of about 250 students or less) and there are no weak departments to get students in through the door.  A lot of professors are also not that flexible when it comes to classes, which can lead to low retention rates of recruits that are accepted because of academic pressure.

[ne-ball]

wiliams, for one, will let in kids to play basketball that would not get in without ball. it varies from school to school though. it depends how much the school values the sport, coach and winning in general.

[fpc85]

Oh, please. Tons of athletes at NESCAC schools need help... no need to get all righteous and defend Amherst's guys.

Saying "some athletes need help" is not the same as saying "all athletes are stupid." Far from it. Nobody's saying the latter. But to imply that 100 percent of athletes at top academic schools like Amherst/Williams/Middlebury/Tufts/wherever else are perfect fits for their schools academically... that's a little bit off.

making way too much of this....i just was having fun with words...frank does all the time....easy.

[ephoops]

NESCAC1 I agree that there is no use in speculation, but while the teams are out on Exam/Christmas break coupled with the fact that we don't have a ton to talk about, I'm go gonna ahead and dive in.
I would assume that tips are somehow tied into the class numbers (among other factors). I think a team with more students can hide a potentially lower recruit (by admissions standards) because their stats-SAT and GPA will not have as severe of an effect on the stats that the admissions department cares about so much.
Although, if this were entirely true, it would lead one to believe the biggest schools,undergraduate population-wise, would have the best teams. So I guess my theory goes out the window...anyways food for thought

As you state, by your logic Tufts would dominate NESCAC due to the size of its student body.  Obviously, it does not...

NESCAC1's numbers are correct regarding tips at A-W-W -- 66 for each. 

However, it's a known fact that Tom Parker is a huge supporter of athletics, particularly basketball.  Thus, I believe that some athletes are accepted at Amherst who are not considered tips who would nonetheless be classified as a tipped athlete at another school.

[TheHerst2and4]

No, I understand how it works, the number of tips each school gets is set, and how recruits are registered as A, B ,C bands ie an A band recruit might be 1450+ SAT and 3.7+ GPA, B band is 1200-1450 3.33-3.7. Schools admisson departments decide how many A B C recruits can get in for each program.
I'm saying out of those 66 spots different schools can get in more C band players or more B band players because their overall student population is greater, and thus letting in more C band players won't have as great an effect on the school's statistics that US NEWS and the admissions department care so much about. I'm not saying the difference in the number of C band players is drastic but if there is a player that a school thinks their athletic talents is worth dipping to a C level for it is easier to do so at a school with a bigger population.
Of course there are many factors why a student chooses a school so recruits may not pick Tufts because of their terrible-looking practice uniforms...
Anyways, that's what I got

[walzy31]

NESCAC1 I agree that there is no use in speculation, but while the teams are out on Exam/Christmas break coupled with the fact that we don't have a ton to talk about, I'm go gonna ahead and dive in.
I would assume that tips are somehow tied into the class numbers (among other factors). I think a team with more students can hide a potentially lower recruit (by admissions standards) because their stats-SAT and GPA will not have as severe of an effect on the stats that the admissions department cares about so much.
Although, if this were entirely true, it would lead one to believe the biggest schools,undergraduate population-wise, would have the best teams. So I guess my theory goes out the window...anyways food for thought

As you state, by your logic Tufts would dominate NESCAC due to the size of its student body.  Obviously, it does not...

NESCAC1's numbers are correct regarding tips at A-W-W -- 66 for each. 

However, it's a known fact that Tom Parker is a huge supporter of athletics, particularly basketball.  Thus, I believe that some athletes are accepted at Amherst who are not considered tips who would nonetheless be classified as a tipped athlete at another school.

Most of the athletes at at Amherst are dumb and good at sports and most of the athletes at Williams are smart and bad at sports...is that what you're trying to say?

[hoya73]

Interesting reading of course but everyone should calm down.  In my experience at three NESCAC schools there are some nuances in TIPS and bands, but let's face it...no one is getting in there who can't do the work (even if they wouldn't get in without sports) and the athletes generally have as good an academic experience, and education, as the rest of the student body.  Let's show some holiday love and toast the NESCAC and D3! 

[ephoops]

NESCAC1 I agree that there is no use in speculation, but while the teams are out on Exam/Christmas break coupled with the fact that we don't have a ton to talk about, I'm go gonna ahead and dive in.
I would assume that tips are somehow tied into the class numbers (among other factors). I think a team with more students can hide a potentially lower recruit (by admissions standards) because their stats-SAT and GPA will not have as severe of an effect on the stats that the admissions department cares about so much.
Although, if this were entirely true, it would lead one to believe the biggest schools,undergraduate population-wise, would have the best teams. So I guess my theory goes out the window...anyways food for thought

As you state, by your logic Tufts would dominate NESCAC due to the size of its student body.  Obviously, it does not...

NESCAC1's numbers are correct regarding tips at A-W-W -- 66 for each. 

However, it's a known fact that Tom Parker is a huge supporter of athletics, particularly basketball.  Thus, I believe that some athletes are accepted at Amherst who are not considered tips who would nonetheless be classified as a tipped athlete at another school.

Most of the athletes at at Amherst are dumb and good at sports and most of the athletes at Williams are smart and bad at sports...is that what you're trying to say?

No, that's not what I'm saying.

My point was that Parker is an avid supporter of athletics at Amherst and as a result, the sports teams have benefitted in the admissions process.  Basketball, in particular, is near and dear to his heart...

[speedy]

No, that's not what I'm saying.

My point was that Parker is an avid supporter of athletics at Amherst and as a result, the sports teams have benefitted in the admissions process.  Basketball, in particular, is near and dear to his heart...

This is very true for Amherst. The Amherst assistant hockey coach is also an admissions officer. I doubt that any other NESCAC has a similarly cozy relationship between admissions and athletics. .  .  .