MBB: NESCAC

Agent_Zero · March 04, 2009, 06:30:52 PM

boo, you are correct that pierce did outplay choice in the head to head matchup. and i respect your opinion that choice is a more complete player. i just respectfully disagree

. and nescac hoops, ill pose the same question to you that ive already posed twice and no one seems to be able to answer for me...what lack of effort on the defensive end are you referring too? again, just give me some validation, please. because his team defense sucks, he must suck on d as well? i just dont get it. ive provided some pretty valid stats, in mho, to back up that he in fact is an above average defender. yet apparently his "attitude and lack of defensive effort" stand out. did you see a lot of tufts games this year as well? just curious where you are coming from. still waiting for eclinchy to chime in and either refute or back me since i think hes in the best position to know...

Agent_Zero · March 04, 2009, 06:31:19 PM

correction: i meant CHOICE outplayed pierce

Bucket · March 04, 2009, 06:58:50 PM

Quote from: dman on March 04, 2009, 05:17:40 PM
pierce plays no "d" and schultz guards the other team's best scorer, so to me it's close to a no-brainer....

I agree 100 percent. To me, Schultz is the best all-around player on the Ephs, and he's absolutely deserving of first-team recognition.

nescac1 · March 04, 2009, 07:04:09 PM

Even the stats Schultz v. Pierce are basically even ...

Pierce, 22, 9, 1, shooting, .50, .33. .66,
Schultz, 18, 7, 2, shooting, .47, .38, .85

When you consider that Schultz's team fared far better, and he is a defensive stopper, I'd say it is clear that, at the very minimum, he and Pierce are equally deserving ...

Bucket · March 04, 2009, 07:05:49 PM

I should follow this up by saying that my prediction of the first-team was Schultz, Baskauskas, Rudin, Choice, and Pierce....so, swapping Snyder for Pierce.

As for next year, don't sleep on Timmy Edwards or Andrew Locke; both of those guys (especially Edwards) could have all-conference years in them.

Agent_Zero · March 04, 2009, 07:06:52 PM

and pierce doesnt? haha again, no one has pointed out a single reason why pierce is so terrible on d. i guess ill stop asking anyone to illuminate their point.

o and last thing...far as i can tell, pierce joined a list that includes one other player in kanem johnson in 03-04 in leading the league in scoring and rebounding in the same year. i went back as far as the nescac stats do so thats only 8 years and im not that informed...just saying. clearly someone deserving of second team recognition. clearly...

lefrakenstein · March 04, 2009, 09:56:56 PM

Quote from: Agent_Zero on March 04, 2009, 07:06:52 PM
and pierce doesnt? haha again, no one has pointed out a single reason why pierce is so terrible on d. i guess ill stop asking anyone to illuminate their point.

o and last thing...far as i can tell, pierce joined a list that includes one other player in kanem johnson in 03-04 in leading the league in scoring and rebounding in the same year. i went back as far as the nescac stats do so thats only 8 years and im not that informed...just saying. clearly someone deserving of second team recognition. clearly...

I think the problem is that Tufts as a team is terrible at defense and Pierce is assumed to be part of the problem. Nevertheless, it is hard to believe that you could lead the league in rebounds and points and not be on the first team.

lefrakenstein · March 04, 2009, 10:01:09 PM

Quote from: Bucket on March 04, 2009, 07:05:49 PM
I should follow this up by saying that my prediction of the first-team was Schultz, Baskauskas, Rudin, Choice, and Pierce....so, swapping Snyder for Pierce.

As for next year, don't sleep on Timmy Edwards or Andrew Locke; both of those guys (especially Edwards) could have all-conference years in them.

I definitely would not sleep on Locke after seeing him play amherst last week. Definitely a player, and big men are typically late bloomers.

nescac hoops · March 04, 2009, 10:11:52 PM

Quote from: Agent_Zero on March 04, 2009, 06:30:52 PM
band nescac hoops, ill pose the same question to you that ive already posed twice and no one seems to be able to answer for me...what lack of effort on the defensive end are you referring too? again, just give me some validation, please. because his team defense sucks, he must suck on d as well? i just dont get it. ive provided some pretty valid stats, in mho, to back up that he in fact is an above average defender. yet apparently his "attitude and lack of defensive effort" stand out. did you see a lot of tufts games this year as well? just curious where you are coming from. still waiting for eclinchy to chime in and either refute or back me since i think hes in the best position to know...

I've seen Pierce play a couple of times before. Obviously he is very talented, but on a number of occasions I have seen him look tired running down on the defensive end and once Tufts gets the ball and they are on offense, he is all the sudden sprinting back on offense. I also noticed, that along with many other Tufts players, he is a bit of a head case -- again, he is obviously very talented but there are at least 5 guys ahead of him who I would take for the aforementioned reasons.

Head to head against Schultz...Schultz was better. Schultz guarded Pierce and held him to 6 or 8 points and went off for 20+ himself....not sure who was guarding Schultz....

eclinchy · March 05, 2009, 12:17:08 AM

First of all, nescac1, it's criminally insane to say that Schultz's stats and Pierce's are "basically even." A difference of four points and two boards is a LOT. Four points is the difference between Choice and Aaron Gallant. Two boards separate Schultz and... Alex Gallant. Yeah, I'm cherry-picking, but the numbers are not the same and you know it. Let's be serious here.

As for this head-to-head thing... AZ is right. Choice has outplayed Pierce, but that doesn't make him a better player.

I've been in the front row for multiple Tufts-Colby games. What I observed this year was that Choice was the more productive player than Pierce, but you can't just look at those two guys in a vacuum -- that's oversimplifying things. It's not a one-on-one game.

Colby devoted everything they had to stopping Pierce. They would put Choice on him, but they would also have a big man like Russell or Planeta helping on him, doing everything they could to limit his looks. That helped Tufts' other forwards get open... and if you look at the box score, it shows. Selby shot 3-for-3, and Beyel was 4-for-7 on 2-point FGs. Colby's game plan was "don't give Pierce anything, and if the other guys hurt you a little bit, it won't be that bad." Give Whitmore some credit -- that worked.

Tufts on the other hand played a straight man, trying to contain not just Choice but Cutrone and Russell and Sherman. So Pierce was left trying to stop Choice one on one. Choice burned him on one play early on -- second possession of the game, iirc -- and you could tell it pissed Pierce off. He got fired up, and he was determined to stop Choice man-to-man. The next play, Selby helped out on Choice, and Pierce called him off right away, yelling "NO, SWITCH"; next play, Beyel sees Pierce get screened and picks up Choice, and Pierce starts yelling "DAVE DAVE DAVE" until he backs away. Pierce wanted Choice to himself. He wanted him bad.

My point is that for whatever reason (call it questionable coaching decisions, call it Pierce's own ego, call it necessity because Colby has more offensive threats than Tufts, whatever), Tufts didn't devote the same energy to stopping Choice that Colby did to Pierce. So you can't just throw a bunch of shooting stats out there and say "look, player X is better than player Y." It's not even close to that simple. I know Choice shot 10-for-17 against Tufts, but you can't tell me that Pierce in his shoes wouldn't have been even better. I personally think he would have.

All of this being said, don't get me wrong. I absolutely LOVE Choice's game, and he might even be the second-best player in the league. But Pierce is better. (But POY isn't about being a good player, necessarily -- it's about leading a good team, so I'm fine with Rudin winning it and of course I'm not surprised.)

Sorry. I don't usually show off my Tufts homerism like this. I just happen to think Jon Pierce is really good at basketball. Sue me.

nescac1 · March 05, 2009, 06:40:00 AM

Eclinchy, it is hardly "criminally insane" to say those stats are more or less comparable. Schultz has close to Pierce's rebounding numbers despite the fact that he is primarily a perimeter player. He accumulated more assists. His shooting numbers overall are better, and his free throw shooting in particular is FAR better. Pierce did score a few more points per game, yes, but on a lot more shot attempts (over 50 more fga despite playing two fewer games) ... Schultz could easily have averaged 22, but that would not have helped the team. Schultz made more free throws than Pierce despite far fewer attempts, and he is a more efficient scorer as well (averaging, barely, more points per FGA).

My point is, you are acting as if there is a dramatic statistical difference between the two, when there isn't. Overall, those stat lines are fairly even, with the biggest different in Pierce's favor being that he takes a lot more shots leading to 4 more ppg, while Schultz seems to do more to make his team better via better shooting overall and accumulating more assists. Throw in Schultz's defense, where again, he was responsible for locking down the best perimeter player (for example he had to guard Baskauskas against Amherst and did a more than credible job) and at worst, they are equally deserving of first team honors -- hardly the sort of travesty the Tufts fans make it out to be, even on the face of things ...

fpc85 · March 05, 2009, 10:14:35 AM

Pierce should be first team.... he has stats and if you have never played on a really bad team you have know idea what it is like to generate those numbers under those conditions. you also have to take more risk on offense to help your team and quite frankly, some players in those situations take time off on defense....not ideal but the reality.

lefrakenstein · March 05, 2009, 11:05:07 AM

Quote from: eclinchy on March 05, 2009, 12:17:08 AM
I absolutely LOVE Choice's game, and he might even be the second-best player in the league. But Pierce is better. (But POY isn't about being a good player, necessarily -- it's about leading a good team, so I'm fine with Rudin winning it and of course I'm not surprised.)

I'm sorry, but if I'm picking a team with a blank slate, I'm taking Ben Rudin first. Then Baskauaskas. Then maybe I start thinking about Pierce... maybe.

These big guys who put up huge numbers on crappy teams are sort of a dime a dozen in the NESCAC, and their team's fans always go off about how underrated they are. Drew Cohen was the same way at Colby a couple of years ago, and the same thing to a lesser extent with Charles Stone, Reggie Stovall, I'm forgetting the one decent player Wes has had in the last few years.

The point is, if Pierce were really the best player in the entire league his team wouldn't suck so much. Explain to me how Wesleyan and CC are better than Tufts if Pierce is the best player in the league. The definitely don't have as talented a supporting cast. Are you going to argue that Bob Sheldon can't coach? I don't think so.

You play to win the game! The best players are the players that do the most to help their team win. Pierce is really good at putting up gaudy numbers but not so good at winning basketball games.

NESCAC2 · March 05, 2009, 11:53:44 AM

hahaha nescac1 smashed eclinchy. HARD BODY

booyakasha · March 05, 2009, 01:50:45 PM

Eclinchy,

You being in the front row for the game means nothing to me. I was in the fifth row, but I think its safe to assume that I had roughly the same view as you. Colby didn't bust out any scheme to try and stop Pierce. They played straight up man to man. Yes, Russel and Planeta did play some help side D, but their job is to protect the paint. They played the block no differently than any other game.

I'll add that Colby has tried some scheme defenses in the past... I distinctly remember a triangle and two against the Williams in 2003 (which failed miserably I might add) and a box and one multiple times against Bates with Neely/Gerrity/Salvagio or Trinity with Rhoten. Pierce didn't warrent any fancy scheme or trick defense.