MBB: NESCAC

[NESCAC2]

more bodying

[NY Hoopster]

Lefrakenstein;

As a Colby guy on this board, I can't let your knock against Drew Cohen go unanswered. Cohen did not put up numbers because he was the primary source of scoring on a "crappy team".  He shared the ball with Nick Farrell, an All Conference player and second team All-American, as well as with Mark Gaudet, another great shooter. Artie Cutrone, a second team Nescac selection this year, was the sixth man in Cohen's Senior year. Hardly a "crappy team".

I believe Cohen led all of D3 in blocks as a Junior, and saved many a game with great, defense, and rebounding throughout his career (at 6'6'', not 6'10''). He was a great all-around player.

[lefrakenstein]

Lefrakenstein;

As a Colby guy on this board, I can't let your knock against Drew Cohen go unanswered. Cohen did not put up numbers because he was the primary source of scoring on a "crappy team".  He shared the ball with Nick Farrell, an All Conference player and second team All-American, as well as with Mark Gaudet, another great shooter. Artie Cutrone, a second team Nescac selection this year, was the sixth man in Cohen's Senior year. Hardly a "crappy team".

I believe Cohen led all of D3 in blocks as a Junior, and saved many a game with great, defense, and rebounding throughout his career (at 6'6'', not 6'10''). He was a great all-around player.

Ok, so I guess I meant that relatively. Granted Cohen was a good player. He had GREAT stats, easily the best in the conference. He was not the best player in the conference, and his fellow first-team all-nescacer Nick Farrell was CERTIANLY not anywere near the top five in the conference. Worst 1st-Team All-NESCAC selection ever. That guy blew his teams chances by taking terrible halfway between the 3-point line and half-court shots more than anyone ever. I remember a few tough games with Colby that I knew we had won when Nick Farrell started jacking up ridiculous shots.

I think the Cohen/Olson year is actually a good example for this year, as Pierce/Rudin are basically Cohen/Olson lite. Cohen had way better stats than Olson (except for assists) but you would have to be nuts to say Cohen was the better player.

Sorry, but it's true.

[formerbant10]

Pierce should be first team.... he has stats and if you have never played on a really bad team you have know idea what it is like to generate those numbers under those conditions. you also have to take more risk on offense to help your team and quite frankly, some players in those situations take time off on defense....not ideal but the reality.

I've played on good teams and bad teams in all types of leagues and levels and I've always found it easier to put up "better" numbers on the really bad teams.  Good defensive players don't take time off on defense no matter what.....that's what makes them good defensive players.

Drew Cohen was a very good player.  Didn't have the senior year that was expected of him after having a monster junior year, but was still very good.  I don't recall Colby going with a gimmick defense against Rhoten through his junior year....maybe his senior, but with Cohen there I doubt they would've needed to.

Stovell's team made it to the conference finals his senior year, not a crappy team either.

[lefrakenstein]

Pierce should be first team.... he has stats and if you have never played on a really bad team you have know idea what it is like to generate those numbers under those conditions. you also have to take more risk on offense to help your team and quite frankly, some players in those situations take time off on defense....not ideal but the reality.

Stovell's team made it to the conference finals his senior year, not a crappy team either.

That's fair. I still stand by my point. Every team throws up a hero, some teams that play very high scoring, fast-paced games like Tufts will throw up heros with monster scoring/rebounding numbers. These numbers do not accurately reflect their value versus players on other teams.

[Sticks11]

lefrakenstein,

Farrell's stats that year:
Overall: 19 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 3.8 apg, 40% 3 fg
Conference: 20.4 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 2.8 apg, 40% 3 fg

When you say "jacking up ridiculous shots" I'm assuming you're talking about 3 pointers since he took 241 that year.  He also made 97 of them.  Making 40% of these "ridiculous shots" is pretty good I'd say.  I think putting up 20 points per game made him AT LEAST top 5 that year.

[NY Hoopster]

Lefrakenstein;

You compound your error by insulting another great Colby player, Nick Farrell. Somehow you believe that your basketball acumen exceeds that of those dolts that make All-Conference and All-American selections.

The point being made, which you ignored, is that Cohen was not about pure offense on a team that needed him to be the leading scorer to win. Farrell led the league in scoring that year, and Gaudet was a constant offensive threat as well. But what should have been obvious to anyone that has basketball acumen was that Cohen was all about defense. He was the league's most valuable defensive player as a Junior. He enjoyed playing defense and lived to block shots. He had the knack of always being where the ball was. By the way, if you watched any Colby games when Farrell played, you know that he worked his ass off on defense as well, even though he was on the floor around 35 minutes per game. Since Sticks 11 has reappeared on the board to cite Farrell's impressive stats, I won't be repetitive.

It's not baseball season quite yet, so I don't know how you wound up in left field by comparing Olson to Cohen. No one has ever said Cohen should have been POY over Olson. Comparing a point guard to a Center is dicey to begin with, so why go there? If your point was that Olson had all-around game and Cohen didn't, you are simply wrong.

[lefrakenstein]

First of all, I'm not saying my basketball acumen exceeds anyone elses, especially not the NESCAC coaches, but it is fun to argue about these things.

Sticks- Farrell probably didn't take a ton of those shots but when you start doing it in crunch time in big games is hurts. Walzy, didn't Farrell make an all-crazy team for his penchant for absurd shots?

There are certian players who really elevate their games against the best competition--Ty Rhoten, Dan Martin, Zak Ray, Kyle Petrie come immidiatley to mind. I once saw Jimmy Bartolotta injure himself diving for a inbounds pass with three seconds left to play in a game that was over -- these dudes play their asses off the entire game. Farrell did not.  (in my opinion. Bowdoin fans may have a different recollection -- i remember a 40 point game somewhere back there)

Hoopster - I would never intentionally accuse Cohen of not playing D. He was a Def. POY! I was comparing Rudin to Olson and Pierce to Cohen. Pierce/Cohen have the better stats, Rudin/Olson are the better players because they do more to help their teams win.  The better comparison from the perspective would have been Pierce/Farrell to Olson/Rudin. My point about the defense was meant in relation to Pierce not making first team.

As for comparing a center and a point guard, dicey I agree, but don't you have to compare between positions if your deciding who the best player in the conference is?

For the record, definitely didnt have a problem with Cohen as a first-teamer

[Old Guy]

I gotta defend Farrell and Cohen. They could play.

Two years ago, we (MIdd) beat Colby in league play at Middlebury 100-93 in a barnburner, a great game. Farrell kept Colby in it with 32 points (7 threes), many from improbable distances. Cohen had fifteen.

A couple weeks later, we got them again in our gym in the opening round of NESCAC tourney play ("How about that," we said: "Middlebury hosting a NESCAC tournament game - can life get any better than this?").

Middlebury was up 14 points with a dozen to play, so our fans, natch, started the "warm up the bus," "you can't stop us" cheers. Everybody on our side said we blew the lead, but I didn't see it that way. Farrell and Cohen did what seniors of their caliber do: they won the game. They beat us. We couldn't stop Cohen underneath - he was 10-14 from the line in the game. Colby tied the game at 72 and beat us in OT. Cohen had 26 and 11; Farrell had 22.

It now all seems part of a process. Rudin is having a year that compares favorably to Farrell's monster season. Smith is playing his best basketball of the season. Dudley, Westman. Senior leadership - it's so important.

Usually.

The best player I saw in our gym two years ago was Chris Rose of Williams. In another great game, the Ephs slipped by us, with Rose scoring 30 (6-10 from three; 6-6 from the line; 8 boards). Clearly, he was  the difference. Then the next year in the quarterfinals debacle at Middlebury he took 5 shots total, was a shadow of his former self. What happened? Confidence, injuries?

[walzy31]

Sticks- Farrell probably didn't take a ton of those shots but when you start doing it in crunch time in big games is hurts. Walzy, didn't Farrell make an all-crazy team for his penchant for absurd shots?

Farrell never made one of my three prestigious All-NESCAC All-Crazy squads.
I remember him well though. He was a very talented shooter with no fear, and often carried the Mules by shooting his team to victory. I do recall the same game you are referring to in LeFrak his/my Senior year in the NESCAC semis when he wasn't hitting his shots (5-14 from deep in the game). Some of them looked terrible...but they are tough shots when they go in. Despite how "crazy" his shot selection seemed, I remember hearing from guys that the film on Farrell was just like his performance that night, only he made them at a 40% clip. Didn't affect that game though as Amherst covered the spread and won by 27.

I wonder how much time I spent writing the below post rather than studying...

Results

The final weekend of NESCAC play has produced the final 20 spreads of the season. Please enjoy this. Purely for entertainment purposes only.


"The nescac1 long shot bet"
Williams wins the NESCAC tournament.

Yes +720
No -800
Actual: ?

Drew Cohen and Nick Farrell combined point total (Saturday only).

0-14     +400
15-29    -110
30-44    -110
45-59    +250
60+       +650
Actual: Cohen 12 Farrell 17 for 29 = 15-29 range : )

"Block party bet"
Who has more blocks, Drew Cohen or Kevin Hopkins (Saturday only).

Cohen -2.5
Hopkins +2.5
Actual: Cohen 0 Hopkins 3 = Hopkins

Does the 4th pick in the 2007 All NESCAC All Crazy draft (Michael Westbrooks) receive at least one of the following: technical foul, flagrant foul, or intentional foul?

Yes +130
No -140
Actual: No

Timeouts called in Amherst/Colby game.

O/U 7.5
Actual: 6 = Under : )

Timeouts called in Trinity/Williams game.

O/U 11.0
Actual: 10 = Under : )

Who records the most assists this weekend (Saturday AND Sunday).

Andrew Olson   -130
Pat Martin    -110
Chris Shalvoy   +200
Nick Farrell    +400
Actual: Martin 9 Olson 8 Shalvoy 4 Farrell 0 = ?(Sunday left)

Team with the most turnovers on Saturday.

Williams   -110
Colby    -120
Amherst  +240
Trinity   +220
Actual: Colby 18 Amherst 14 Trinity 9 Williams 6 = Colby : )

Highest scorer in LeFrak on Saturday choosing one of the leading scorers from each team.

Chris Rose    +100
Russ Martin   +120
Dan Wheeler  +150
Nick Farrell    -110
Actual: Rose 9 R. Martin 10 Wheeler 18 Farrell 17 = Wheeler

First fan ejected from LeFrak on Saturday is a _____ fan.

Amherst   -110
Colby   +250
Trinity   +150
Williams   +150
No fans are ejected  +350
Actual: No fan ejected

"Steal bet"
Who has more steals, Tim McLaughlin or Kino Clarke.

McLaughlin -1.5
Clarke +1.5
Actual: McLaughlin 3 Clarke 2(although i only saw one) = Clarke : )

Phil Wall Field Goal Attempts (FGA) on Saturday.

0    -130
1    +100
2    +150
3    +400
Actual: 0  : )

Total 3Pt FGA by both teams COMBINED in Amherst/Colby game.

O/U 36.5
Actual: Amherst 40 Colby 24 for 64 = Waaaaaaaaaay Over

Total 3Pt FGA by both teams COMBINED in Trinity/Williams game.

O/U 39.5
Actual: Williams 16 Trinity 23 for 39 = Under : )

"Western Mass Bet"
Leading scorer on Saturday who hails from the 4-1-3.

Russ (East Longmeadow) Martin  -150
Pat (Minnechaug/Cathedral) Martin  +120
Glenn (Deerfield) Wong   +8000
Actual: Russ 10 Pat 13 Glenn 2 mins = Pat Martin

"California Bet"
Leading scorer on Saturday who hails from the Golden State.

Andrew Olson -130
Brian Baskauskas -110
Blake Schultz -110
Tommas Galia +300
Grant Meyer +714
Random dude on Colby (Justin Sherman) +800
Any other Cali guy (Eric Moore, Trin Players) +1500
Actual: Olson 10 Baskauskas 14 Schultz 22 Galia 3 = Schultz

Meghan O'Malley vs. Joe Goheghan - Total Points (Saturday only).

O'Malley -6.5
Goheghan +6.5
Actual: O'Malley 14 Goheghan 11 = Goheghan

Back by popular demand:

"Williams Gunners bet"
Maggie Miller/Chris Rose COMBINED FGA on Saturday.

O/U 27.5
Actual: Miller 15 Rose 10 for 25 = Under : )

"First name is Chris bet"
First player to score a point for the Ephs has the first name "Chris."

Yes -250
No  +300
Actual: Exciting bet. Schultz lay in and the foul about 2 minutes into the game. 3 of next 4 Eph baskets were from Rose or Shalvoy = No

"Bladder bet"
Number of cups of water Coach Paulsen drinks on Saturday.

O/U 14.0
Actual: Paid extremely close attention. 6 in the first half and 8 in the second half. = Push

FBant,
You got 4 right, 11 wrong, and 1 push with the olson pick and williams not winning still open. Thanks for the "action" though.

The pick of the weekend would have been the long shot on Williams parlayed with Phill Wall not taking a shot.

[walzy31]

The best player I saw in our gym two years ago was Chris Rose of Williams. In another great game, the Ephs slipped by us, with Rose scoring 30 (6-10 from three; 6-6 from the line; 8 boards). Clearly, he was  the difference. Then the next year in the quarterfinals debacle at Middlebury he took 5 shots total, was a shadow of his former self. What happened? Confidence, injuries?

Williamstown Gloom Disorder (WGD)

[nescac hoops]

First of all, nescac1, it's criminally insane to say that Schultz's stats and Pierce's are "basically even." A difference of four points and two boards is a LOT. Four points is the difference between Choice and Aaron Gallant. Two boards separate Schultz and... Alex Gallant. Yeah, I'm cherry-picking, but the numbers are not the same and you know it. Let's be serious here.

Sorry. I don't usually show off my Tufts homerism like this. I just happen to think Jon Pierce is really good at basketball. Sue me.

Eclinchy, it's almost criminally insane not to take any of the Tufts offensive statistics with a grain of salt. They were third in the league in scoring averaging only 2 points less than Williams at the top of the league in scoring, yet they were the WORST team and WORST defensive team in the league. Given the run-and-gun style that Tufts plays, a lot of their players have relatively high scoring averages. I would argue that any of the top 5 guys on the first team would put up Pierce like numbers on the offensive end if they played in the Tufts system -- some of them nearly did for their own respective teams -- but their coaches choose not to play that style...

[NY Hoopster]

Re; Colby v Amherst playoff game of 07;

For the record, Farrell's shot was off that game; if you were there, you might remember that he badly rolled his ankle half way through the first half. After sitting out, he came back in considerably slowed, and the shot wasn't there. What had been a fairly close game became a blowout.

[lefrakenstein]

I gotta defend Farrell and Cohen. They could play.

I gotta defend my original point: That better stats don't necessarily make the better player. I agree that Cohen and Farrell could play. I said I had no problem with Cohen being on first team. Everyone has one or two beefs with the first team selections over the years, and Nick Farrell happens to be one of mine. That doesn't mean I think he was bad, I just don't think he was top 5 in the league that year.  Maybe I just caught him on an off night.

In general though, players with eye-popping stats like Pierce's are not always better than players with more modest (although still very impressive) stats like Rudin's. It has more to do with who helps their team win more. By that measure, Rudin is very deserving of the POY, and I don't understand anyone who thinks Pierce is the best player in the conference. That's all I'm saying.

[NESCAC2]

complete and utter bodiment