MBB: NESCAC

[toad22]

Watching on the computer, you couldn't see Wang leave the court and run to the locker room mid way through the first half. He was sick as a dog with the stomach flu, which has been running through the team. I think everyone is on the mend, but it was a little scary to have half the team woozy in this big a game.

[Bucket]

Grit and determination won it for Middlebury tonight. As they have time and time again this year, the Panthers came out in the second half and just took the game away from its opponent. An 8-0 run turned a 4 point deficit into a 4 point advantage and Midd never trailed again.

They did it on the defensive end, of course. 14 blocks for the Blue and White--6 by Locke, 4 by Sharry, 4 by Davis. Two of Davis's were insane--came from the block to swat a THREE point attempt from the wing, and swooped in from behind to reject what appeared to be a wide open backdoor layup that would have cut the lead to 4 with a few minutes left.

Sharry was a beast, 15 and 10. Locke really asserted himself in the 2nd half, though it was scary when he fouled out with 3:00 left. And the guards were damn impressive--all hit clutch shots, several from 3, in the second half, and Kizel put the team on his back during the last two minutes. Wolfin, Thompson, Wholey all played key roles.

DiBartolomeo was tough, the best guard I've seen all year.

St.Mary's will be tough tomorrow--athletic, long, can knock down shots.

A nice, vocal Midd student contingent made the trip...as loud as the Rochester fans.

Running on fumes. On to tomorrow.

[walzy31]

RIC / Amherst was a great game. RIC fought back and took a scary 1 point lead with less than 3 to play before Toomey and Meehan took over down the stretch.

Unlike the other posters who watched the game online, I thought that the officiating in this game was actually quite good. There were two bad (really bad) calls made in the game:
1) Amherst up 4 on defense with 2:30ish left, Toomey provides help defense and cleanly rips the ball from the RIC player driving with two hands. They call a foul and award two free throws which the RIC player made.
2) With 1:30 left and RIC possession trailing by 2, there was a scramble for a loose ball on the sideline across the court from the RIC bench and it clearly went off an Amherst player. The ball was errantly awarded to Amherst.

Aside from these two missed calls (which more or less even out), then I think they called a pretty decent game.

Mason Choice is REALLY tough. A first step somewhere in between Sha Brown and everyone else in NESCAC, but much bigger and stronger than Sha. He will be a force to be reckoned with next season when he returns for his Senior year. Antone Gray also lit it up (especially in the 2nd half). Lastly, I was impressed with the FT shooting by RIC (19-21).

Congratulations to Conor Meehan for scoring his 1,000th point at the free throw line with 2.5 seconds left and icing the game by building Amherst's lead from 3 to 4. Pretty impressive considering he scored 75 points as Freshman and missed 9 games last season due to injury.

Should be an amazing game tomorrow. I will not be handicapping the game but both teams will score 74-87 points. I will post a Middlebury line once I do some homework on St. Marys.

[Old Guy]

Just a fan: You got that right. St. Mary's is very impressive. Push the ball all the time, press full court the whole game on D, go right at the hoop on O. They're fast, strong, tall, athletic, deep. Lots of little fast guards, two very good 6'8's - MacAuley (a Frosh) and Barum. I saw the whole first game: Buff State was no slouch. The Seahawks (St. Mary's) will indeed be a handful. I sat in the St. Mary's section and one of their fans, my age, asked me "do you really believe you can play at this pace?" I moved. I am not texting Coach Brown with a game strategy. I don't know what will work. He'll come up with something. We'll take the break when we have it, and then play smart and pull it out when we don't. The Panthers don't beat themselves.

Tonight's game: why do I doubt? We had an Amherst-esque first half, couldn't buy a hoop. I'm sure people were saying "these guys are 26-1? Who do they play?"
Nolan Thompson's h.s. coach spoke to me at the half and said, "don't worry, you got them right where you want them." We were only down by four, 28-24. Locke was huge defending the hoop in the first half: we could have been down double digits easy. I was in deep despair.

Indeed, two Wolfin long shots and a Locke 3 pt play wiped out the deficit immediately in the 2nd half, and we maintained that 2-10 point lead for the rest of the game. Wolfin had no points in the first half, 13 in the 2nd, and big ones. Locke fouled out but had 6 blocks in only 23 minutes. Sharry had 15 and 10 with four blocks - a broken record, I know, but he's so good.  

Nolan Thompson played his usual 38 minutes and guarded the Yellowjackets' outstanding pg John Dibartolomeo and held him to five points and two assists under his season's average. He goes hard to the hoop and has a nice pull-up jumper, or he goes all the way to the rack, or finds the open man on the arc. Good player. He was the MVP in the conference tourney. He played better in the first half than the second: credit Nolan.

I'm not av fan of the Rochester gym, the Palestra. There's no room on the end lines: it's like playing at the "Y". Dibartolomeo went hard to the hoop, got fouled and crashed into the padded wall, right there on the baseline - took a long time getting up. It's a dangerous gym.

Rochester's the best 3 pt shooting team in the country at 43.5%; tonight they shot 20%. They're third in the country in fg % with 51.3. Not tonight: 30%. Midd had the rebounding edge 42-34.

[senatorfrost]

  Does anyone know if a conference has ever sent three teams to the d3 final fours in the same year. This year it looks like Amherst Women and Middlebury will make it along with the Amherst /Williams winner of course. Yes I know you never know but Babson W and St. Mary's M come from overall lesser leagues, so I think there will be three NESCAC teams in the final four this year.

[eph partisan]

Just a fan: You got that right. St. Mary's is very impressive. Push the ball all the time, press full court the whole game on D, go right at the hoop on O. They're fast, strong, tall, athletic, deep. Lots of little fast guards, two very good 6'8's - MacAuley (a Frosh) and Barum. I saw the whole first game: Buff State was no slouch. The Seahawks (St. Mary's) will indeed be a handful. I sat in the St. Mary's section and one of their fans, my age, asked me "do you really believe you can play at this pace?" I moved. I am not texting Coach Brown with a game strategy. I don't know what will work. He'll come up with something. We'll take the break when we have it, and then play smart and pull it out when we don't. The Panthers don't beat themselves.

I wouldn't worry about the bigs, but it sounds like Wolfin and Thompson are going to have to work hard on both ends of the floor. Old Guy, have teams pressed the Panthers much this year? Sounds like it's going to be a good one. Go Panthers.

RIC / Amherst was a great game. RIC fought back and took a scary 1 point lead with less than 3 to play before Toomey and Meehan took over down the stretch.

I thought RIC might have had the Jeffs! Toomey looks like he has his shot back. He and Meehan in the same back-court I think is probably the best offensive tandem in the NESCAC in terms of balance and the ability to score. Wang and Robertson give them a run for their money as a pair offensively (Robertson isn't really looked to for buckets, per se, but he creates very well and makes great decisions), and I think the latter pair is better overall because Wang is comparable defensively to both the Amherst guards, and Robertson is just a stellar defender. Though I guess it doesn't really matter: all comes down to one game for shot at the big one.

I will not be handicapping the game but both teams will score 74-87 points. I will post a Middlebury line once I do some homework on St. Marys.

I think if you did handicap, a pick 'em would probably be a reasonable line. These teams are really, really close. I'll take the Ephs by 3.

Watching on the computer, you couldn't see Wang leave the court and run to the locker room mid way through the first half. He was sick as a dog with the stomach flu, which has been running through the team. I think everyone is on the mend, but it was a little scary to have half the team woozy in this big a game.

That makes Wang's game even more impressive. We NEED him to be healthy, or play like it, today though. He is our Jeff-killer - and, while I like when he lets the game come to him, his penchant for being ridiculous against Amherst is based on his aggression. Averaging 30 points on 53 percent shooting, 4.5 boards, 3.5 assists, and 1 steal per game against Amherst this year. Disgusting.

Thanks DeWayne ... I hope you are right!  But tomorrow will be a war.  I think Williams is just a slight bit better than Amherst, but throw all that out when these teams play (so long as they are reasonably close, as they are), the two teams know each other so well, strange things can happen, and unexpected guys step up.  You know Troy, Wang, and Nate will bring it tomorrow, but the Ephs need a BIT more out of the supporting cast, especially Klemm, to knock off a very balanced Amherst team who seems to be shooting the ball very well right now.  No easy looks from deep for Toomey tomorrow!!

I also say thanks, DeWayne! VW has to be one of the favorites to win it all next year.

This game is not going to come down to one thing or a list of things. These teams are too even. Amherst will obviously want to stop Wang and Whittington, but they can't let the supporting cast get going; we obviously want to keep Toomey and Workman (who kills us) in check, but Amherst has a lot of balance, so it'll be tough for us to focus on them. Maybe it really comes down to two cliches: which way does the ball bounce, and who wants it more?

[Major Hoople]

  Hey, EP, your Little Two mindset, in talking about NESCAC guards,overlooks the steady all season play of Midd's Wolfin and Thompson, who haven't done much except win 27 games this year...and they show up in the big games, just ask Wang and Toomey.  The primary role of the point is to set the offense and distribute the ball.  I believe that Wolfin led the league in assists and Thompson is probably the best defensive guard in the league.  For what it's worth, Kizel, who gives the Panthers a third dimension in the backcourt, was this year's ROY.

[jayhawk]

Congrats to all Nescac teams still in playoffs. Intersting to see that Hixon has made several adjustments since the Middlebury playoff game. One is that  David Waller who is extremely athletic and can get shot the three is playing extremely well, best all year. In last two playoff games he has scored a butch of points and last game had most rebounds. In Middlebury game, Waller got two very quick offensive fouls and played only 9 minutes and sat on the bench for most of game-now playing more regardless of fouls.   At Middlebury playoff game, Meehan had 18 points and since continued to play more of an offensive lead which is important.  Toomey also seemsto  have made some adjustments -in Middlebury playoff game he had 4 fouls and was off game certainly in part due to Middlebury defense.   Amherst had not played too many away games and this clearly showed on initial Middlebury- Williams roadtrip.
Williams is playing great with two great lead players so tonight will be a strong foe. For Amherst it is probably the first time it met Williams with all of its players not hurt and playing together.

[nescac1]

Toad, wow, amazing about Wang, to be effective against a deep and very good group of guards, despite that situation, shows the kind of tremendous heart he has.  

VERY bad timing re: the flu bug, seems like every year, one NESCAC team gets a bit snake-bitten with illness at bad times, and Williams has been this year.  After a very draining game last night, and less than 100 percent going in, I just hope Williams (especially Wang, Whittington and Robertson, who really carried the team and played big minutes) can recover in time to be totally effective tonight.  The adrenaline and home crowd should help them.  Of course, Amherst had a tough game last night too, and as usual Hixon has really shortened his rotation in the post-season (40 minutes for Meehan!) to basically seven guys plus a few spot minutes from Williamson, so both teams could be running on fumes a bit.  Whoever can dig down and find that third wind may take the game down the stretch.  

Amherst won't get the sort of open looks from deep they had against RIC, who as stated before, really overcommitted on defense, and probably had to lest Amherst dominate down low.  Williams did struggle at times defending the three last night, but I think will do a better job vs. the Jeffs.  What worries me most is rebounding -- Amherst often really hurts Williams on the offensive glass, and the Ephs weren't great on the boards last night -- and keeping Troy out of foul trouble -- picking up early ticky-tack fouls has limited his first half minutes three games in a row now.  I agree with Eph Partisan that Williams will need a lot more offense from its guards tonight, Wang, but also Rooke-Ley and Klemm (and Robertson has to continue his aggressive play).  Amherst is big enough inside that Troy won't be able to go off for 28 again.  

Midd guards are very solid, Major Hoople, but as I've said before,  they aren't huge difference makers most nights, and don't need to be.  Wang and Robertson, and then Meehan and Toomey (who, I'll remind you, was voted ROY, not Kizel, even if some of us -- including me -- think both were deserving), have to carry a much bigger burden, and are all more efficient / effective offensive players than the Midd guards.  Midd has such a tremendous front-court (easily the best in NESCAC and perhaps the best nationally), especially defensively, that it allows guards to gamble on D and get lots of open shots on offense.  And despite that, the Williams / Amherst guards are substantially more efficient offensively, especially in terms of shooting.   Again, no disrespect to the Midd guards, who are tremendous defenders and give them just enough on offense to keep defenses honest, very tough and gritty players, but there is a reason Amherst and Williams have guards on the first-team all NESCAC, these are guys who carry the teams at times, which the Midd guards are rarely asked to do, outside of a few games when Thompson was red-hot.  In my view, while a true team, what makes Midd really elite is the physicality and athleticism of the Davis/Locke/Sharry combination.  

[eph partisan]

  Hey, EP, your Little Two mindset, in talking about NESCAC guards,overlooks the steady all season play of Midd's Wolfin and Thompson, who haven't done much except win 27 games this year...and they show up in the big games, just ask Wang and Toomey.  The primary role of the point is to set the offense and distribute the ball.  I believe that Wolfin led the league in assists and Thompson is probably the best defensive guard in the league.  For what it's worth, Kizel, who gives the Panthers a third dimension in the backcourt, was this year's ROY.

Major Hoople, I don't think it's really fair to jump on me for having a Little Two mindset. If you look at my posts, I've been giving Wolfin, Kizel and Thompson credit all year. They are exceptional in their roles; the starters  are probably the best defensive pair in the league (Thompson being the league's best defender); and Kizel had my vote for ROY. Moreover, I have been bothered by Wang's TOs all season and have made quite a fuss about it.

In addition, the discussion isn't about who the best pure PG is (which, IMO, is still Meehan), but who comprises the best overall backcourt. I promise, I try to make my opinions as objective as possible, and I am not trying to sell the Midd guards short.

But, since I am actually interested, I took a look at combined numbers for the three starting  best backcourts for the NESCAC's best three teams.

Williams Wang/Robertson: 25.9 ppg, 51% FG, 43% 3pFG, 7.7 Rb/g, 7 Ast/g, 4.8 TOs/g, 2.2 Stl/g
Amherst Meehan/Toomey: 26.4 ppg, 45% FG, 40% 3pFG, 7.9 Rb/g, 7.1 Ast/g, 3.7 TOs/g, 2.9 Stl/g
Middlebury Wolfin/Thompson: 18.7 ppg, 39% FG, 35% 3pFG, 6.9 Rb/g, 6.3 Ast/G, 4.5 TOs/g, 2.4 Stl/G

My numbers may be slightly off, because I do not think Midd's include last night's game (I got them off the NESCAC website), but that is basically where they stand. Now, let's compare the backcourts.

Offense: Williams and Amherst statistically a wash - very comparable points, Ephs better shooters, Jeffs take care of the ball better; Middlebury trailing far behind.
Defense: The numbers don't tell the story here at all. Although Amherst leads in steals and rebounds, they are the weakest, and it isn't close - quick guards eat them alive. Middlebury is superior to Williams, with Thompson being the best perimeter defender in the league, Robertson and Wolfin both very good and pretty close (I give the edge to Robertson, but I have watched him much more), and Wang being pretty average. This analysis is subjective, but I think most would agree.

I have left Kizel out of the analysis, but you can either lose some playmaking and add some shooting by replacing Wolfin with Kizel, or take out Thompson and lose the best defender of the bunch. EDIT: I have also left Barisse out from Amherst, who is a slightly better shooter than Toomey for the season, and plays more, but I do not think as good. In addition, when you look at the statistics, not much changes if you switch the two.

Simply put, I don't think Middlebury's defense is enough to wipe out the clear lag in offense, and I really don't think there is much of an argument to be made that it does, though I would be happy to hear it. Middlebury's backcourt is very good - but not the best in the league.

[Major Hoople]

   Thanks, EP and NESCAC1, for very thoughtful, well presented arguments.  While I still don't agree (sometimes the numbers dont mean everything...I saw both playoff games) your comments are obviously well taken, and great posts.

[trixiep]

Rochester Chronicle account of Midd - Rochester game.  Excellent photos depicting the difficulty of scoring in the paint against Middlebury.

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110312/SPORTS09/103120351/UR-loses-its-shooting-touch-against-Middlebury?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Sports

[walzy31]

   Thanks, EP and NESCAC1, for very thoughtful, well presented arguments.  While I still don't agree (sometimes the numbers dont mean everything...I saw both playoff games) your comments are obviously well taken, and great posts.

If you are comparing which back court is the best in a vacuum, and your vacuum happens to be the NESCAC Championship weekend then of course the Middelbury guards are the best...otherwise eph partisan's comments are dead on.

Toomey and Meehan just combined for 42 pts, 7 reb, and 8 ast on 8-17 shooting from 3pt in 66 minutes in the Sweet 16.
Wolfin, Thompson, AND the not ROY Kizel combined for 30 pts, 12 reb, and 9 ast shooting 4-11 from 3pt in 96 minutes in the Sweet 16.

I will use the Sweet 16 as my vacuum and say our guard are better offensively but then again, I don't even know what we are arguing about as you play St. Mary's tonight and we play Williams.

[walzy31]

Saturday March 12th NESCAC Elite 8 NCAA Spreads

St. Mary's (MD) Vs. Middlebury (@ Rochester)
Middlebury -4.0
O/U: 119.5

Amherst @ Williams
Pick'em
O/U: 156.0

[jayhawk]

Good dialogue-- a group of excellent guards in Nescac. I like Kizel. One attribute he has is that he is physically strong for a guard. Toomey needs to gets stronger which help him significantly Toomey is an excellent playmaker who I think is a terrific passer. His ability to shoot foul shots has been a tremendous benefit at the end of games. . Amherst has a commitment from an excellent guard for next year (not Mussachia who is an excellent small forward). So next year will continue to be interesting at the guard position