MBB: NESCAC

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Thanks for the conversation. I enjoyed it despite the record of Colby and Conn not being addressed.
I agree with Hoops Fan. I actually think that the top of the NESCAC (and for that matter the WIAC, UAA and some years ODAC and CCIW) can compete with the bottom half of the Ivy and Patriot Leagues. And probably some other leagues' bottom halves that are less accessible for me to watch play. There is clearly a gap when you start talking about any major conference like ACC, Big East, Big 12, SEC and Big 10. However, then Lehigh beats Duke and it makes me scratch my head and start dreaming...

There's a big difference between "top D3 players could contribute on D1 programs" and "top D3 programs can compete with the bottom half of the Ivy League".  The former I agree with.  The latter I generally don't.

The problem is we'll never know.  Those lower level d1 teams do their best to avoid good d3 squads.  You'll see them play middling d3 squads from time to time, but the best d3 teams never really get a shot at beatable d1 schools.

MIT was just getting to the point where they could beat Harvard and Jeremy Lin showed up; now they don't play each other as much (although Harvard is much improve and likely no longer beatable).

Didn't Williams beat Holy Cross a few years back or was it just really close?

This year, UTPA (coached by a former d3 guy) played two d3 teams.  Oswego State went all the way to South Texas for the game and only lost by five points.  Massey has them ranked 316th in d1, two spots behind Colgate.  I think it's safe to say that likely Amherst could hang with Colgate pretty well.

When Stevens Point won those back to back titles, I think that team could have beaten half the squads in d1 that year. That was a very good team.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I believe Navy stopped scheduling D3's because they started getting beat by the likes of Gettysburg... and wasn't it Air Force that lost to Colorado College recently?!

[rlk]

The problem is we'll never know.  Those lower level d1 teams do their best to avoid good d3 squads.  You'll see them play middling d3 squads from time to time, but the best d3 teams never really get a shot at beatable d1 schools.

MIT was just getting to the point where they could beat Harvard and Jeremy Lin showed up; now they don't play each other as much (although Harvard is much improve and likely no longer beatable).

Didn't Williams beat Holy Cross a few years back or was it just really close?

This year, UTPA (coached by a former d3 guy) played two d3 teams.  Oswego State went all the way to South Texas for the game and only lost by five points.  Massey has them ranked 316th in d1, two spots behind Colgate.  I think it's safe to say that likely Amherst could hang with Colgate pretty well.

When Stevens Point won those back to back titles, I think that team could have beaten half the squads in d1 that year. That was a very good team.

Actually, Williams did win, 78-71 in 2003 (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/25/sports/college-basketball-at-williams-basketball-is-in-balance-and-on-the-back-burner.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm).  You're right.

Harvard has played MIT each of the past 3 years, and to the best of my knowledge that's going to continue.  This is the first time since 1985 they had played.  MIT's squad was quite different then; we won something like 6 games (I was head manager of that team), and got blown out something like 86-50 (it was really worse than that).  Amherst beat us by a similar score (although there was one year that we did edge Amherst out).  I'd SWAG that this year's team would have beaten the team of my era by 30-40 points and would have been at least competitive with the Harvard team of that era, but obviously there's no way of knowing.  Of course, MIT's got a great team just when Harvard does.  If MIT has good recruiting, and Harvard can't replace Keith Wright and Kyle Casey, things might look a bit different.

I did see Jeremy Lin against Mitchell Kates, though.  Kates was a freshman and Lin was a senior, but my recollection is that Kates wasn't giving up a whole lot of quickness.  I have a nice video clip of Kates against Oliver McNally from that game.  Fun little play, things got chaotic and Kates called for the ball.  He backed it out to midcourt to let everyone get composed, with McNally guarding him.  He took a few steps over to his left, calm and loose as you please, did a few crossover dribbles, quick fake to his right, left, and then blows by McNally to the right.  The layup didn't go (the lane was clogged), but I think they picked up on the fact that Kates is just plain dangerous.

[frank uible]

In 2003 Williams beat a so-so Holy Cross decisively, 78-71, of course at Holy Cross with extraordinarily superior shooting and ball security, but on most nights that Holy Cross team would have defeated that Williams team with Holy Cross' superior quickness and height. That season Williams lost only one game, it being the DIII championship game with Stevens Point decided by a Stevens Point bucket at the buzzer.

[toad22]

I seriously doubt that any D3 teams in the last few years would regularly beat Ivy or Patriot league teams. Sure, the top D3s will occasionally knock somebody off, but not regularly. I watched Dartmouth play Bucknell this year. Dartmouth had about the worst personnel that they will ever have. Even they would beat this year's version of Midd/Amherst on most nights. The games would be competitive, but the edge would be to Dartmouth. They are quicker and bigger. They don't shoot it any better (maybe worse), but most nights the NESCAC teams would lose. I wish we had the chance to try. A favorite memory of mine was watching the 1967-68 Ephs slaughter Harvard my freshman year at Williams. I was running onto the court after the game just as the Harvard coach was retreating to the locker room and I heard him say "We'll never play these fu....g guys again!" And they never did. I think that is the world we live in now ... No D1 wants the embarrassment of losing to a D3.   

[frank uible]

In the 1954-55 season the Williams regular season basketball schedule was almost half full of what today would be DI teams (as I recall, BC, BU, Harvard, UMass, Army, Vermont, Dartmouth and University of Rhode Island). Williams defeated all of them (most of them on their home courts) on its way to the NCAAs (the only NCAAs in those days).

[ronk]

  The year I played for the Scranton frosh team(early 60s), most of our nonconference schedule was D1(Buffalo, Niagara, Lafayette, Canisius, Seton Hall, Providence, Temple, Villanova). We rarely won, but were 1-1 vs. Coach K when he coached @ Army. My personal hilite was playing against the Temple frosh as part of a tripleheader(the feature, a big 5 game between St. Joe's and Penn)  at the mecca of college bball - the U of Penn Palestra. Too bad, we have to be satisfied now with exhibition games as season openers.

[jumpshot]

Toad, Williams also beat Harvard the year before---at Harvard, on television.
Perhaps the two consecutive losses convinced them to stop playing Williams!

[TheHerst2and4]

That season Williams lost only one game, it being the DIII championship game with Stevens Point decided by a Stevens Point bucket at the buzzer.

I beg to differ....

[frank uible]

My error - 2 games. I was confusing the 2002-03 season with the 2003-04 season.

[JustAFan]

Coach Tong's Williams teams played Yale a couple of times in the 1970's, beating them by 2 before a packed house in the old Lasell gym in 1977.  Credit the magic of Lasell with at least 10 points in that upset win. The previous year Yale beat the Ephs by 25 plus in New Haven.  These games were played at a time when DIII teams rarely had height and usually consisted of 8 guards and 4 small forwards. If memory serves, the tallest Williams starters were 6-4 and 6-5 while everyone in the Yale frontcourt was 6-6 and up.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Looking at only the northeast teams might have many feeling that most couldn't win against D1's... but I don't agree. I think a lot of Division III teams would have success against D1's in the right circumstances. We have covered a number of "upsets" over the years... it isn't that rare.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Looking at only the northeast teams might have many feeling that most couldn't win against D1's... but I don't agree. I think a lot of Division III teams would have success against D1's in the right circumstances. We have covered a number of "upsets" over the years... it isn't that rare.

From the d3 vs. d1 (etc.) board:

2004-05  won 2 of 63
2005-06  won 2 of 68
2006-07  won 1 of 44
2007-08  won 1 of 32
2008-09  won 1 of 35
2009-10  won 0 of 58
(2010-01 no one compiled; RIP, Rhodes Scholar )
2011-12  won 0 of 45

Alas, I'd call that pretty rare.

Though actually I agree the the very top of d3 would frequently beat the very bottom of d1.  That just hasn't happened to be the matchups.  Low level d1 teams are not about to challenge top level d3 teams - d1 coaches are rarely suicidal!

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Just as an FYI - if a Gettysburg can beat a Navy... then this isn't top of D3 vs. bottom of D1...

[amh63]

Been following some of this D3 vs. D1 discussions and I need to bring it back to reality a bit.
Back in the old days of the 50's and 60's....for what is now the "CAC", it was quite common for the likes of Amherst, Williams, Midd. and others to schedule games with the NE Ivy schools like Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, etc. in basketball, and many other sports.  Amherst in those days would play and beat Harvard and lose to Williams, etc.....as well as Holy Cross.  That was before the formulation of what is now known as NCAA three divisions.  In soccer, Harvard and UConn were frequently on the list of teams to play.  UMass in town was played in lacrosse and in baseball there were many Ivy teams.  In the discussions, I suggest to stick with schools in the Ivy and in the Patriot league when talking about Div.1...schools that do not have scholarship players and have comparable academic requirements for students.  To discuss play against schools even in Div. 2 where scholarships are given for sports is not worth the effort, IMO.
It is interesting to note here that Amherst has scheduled Dartmouth for a baseball game this season....maybe due to the new AD in Vt.
Of course, in squash, and in Tennis....Amherst and other conf. schools play "Div. 1" schools....and Trinity dominates in squash.
In today's reality of basketball, I'm afraid that it is best to leave such divisional discussions, IMHO, to the domain of dreams and history.