MBB: NESCAC

[frank uible]

amh63: Vainly trying to elevate the low cultural tone of this board just a little.

[Old Guy]

I watched the Midd/RPI game.  The "System" at least in the hands of RPI is a joke.  Test tube basketball.  Once you can get past the initial double team on the inbounds pass, which Midd was able to do 90% of the time, baskets become absurdly easy to come by.  What decent recruit is going to commit to RPI knowing they are changing lines hockey game like with no thought to flow or having no go to guys?  Word around the campfire is the RPI players are not happy with it, but obviously have no say in the matter. Grabtherim

Would the outcome have been different had the played traditional basketball?

[grabtherim]

I watched the Midd/RPI game.  The "System" at least in the hands of RPI is a joke.  Test tube basketball.  Once you can get past the initial double team on the inbounds pass, which Midd was able to do 90% of the time, baskets become absurdly easy to come by.  What decent recruit is going to commit to RPI knowing they are changing lines hockey game like with no thought to flow or having no go to guys?  Word around the campfire is the RPI players are not happy with it, but obviously have no say in the matter. Grabtherim

Would the outcome have been different had the played traditional basketball?

No, they did not have the talent to beat Midd using any style of play, but to me that's not the point.  The "System" is certainly not what the kids who comitted to RPI expected or commited to in going to RPI.  It's not something they have ever been involved with before.  I know this is a coach's decision.  Coaches coach, kids play blah blah blah.  That being said, the kids on the team are none too pleased, and I dont blame them one bit.  This is basketball experimentation which the overwhelming majority of kids have no interest in.  It does not reward better players, allows no individual flow and has to stifle individual improvement.  To me it only serves and probably holds appeal to kids who are not real standouts and are happy getting 1/3 of the minutes  Old Guy - you played hoops, would you want to be on a team playing this style game in and game out or better yet if you have a son who was about to play college hoops would you want him on a "System" team?   

[madzillagd]

I watched the first half of the Midd-RPI game and I wouldn't really say that was a System game.  If you are only putting up 24 three point attempts you are not really running it as it was designed.  You're trying to get as many shot opportunities as possible and one of the ways you do that is to give up baskets on purpose - which is not what RPI was doing.  They were defending in the half court and that eats up the clock and reduces the shot attempts. 

[Pat Coleman]

Yep, 24 3's is not a Grinnell System team. They might be doing the old Loyola Marymount run and gun instead.

I'm sure that kids 10-15 are happy to be getting some meaningful playing time. That wouldn't happen in a "traditional" offense.

[grabtherim]

Yep, 24 3's is not a Grinnell System team. They might be doing the old Loyola Marymount run and gun instead.

I'm sure that kids 10-15 are happy to be getting some meaningful playing time. That wouldn't happen in a "traditional" offense.

I dont really know if it is the " Grinnell System" or Loyola Marymount, but whatever it is that has "line changes" every 2.5 minutes is not the basketball players want to play except maybe kids 10-15 you refer to.  Were Hank Gathers and Bo Kimble part of a five man line which were pulled every few minutes?  I dont remember but doubt Westhead did that.  I believe that the coaches chances of getting top flight talent and winning on a consistent basis are greatly diminished with his style of play.     

[nescac1]

I remember RPI being a gritty, physical team that, even when lacking in talent, at least gave Williams a tough game most times they played.  This RPI squad has a totally ineffectual system that sort of half-presses but doesn't fully commit to it, allowing Williams to score 67 (!) points in the first half before the Ephs took their foot off the gas, still finishing with a 45 point victory.  Yes, a lot of guys get to play, but I'm not really sure how fun it is to lose by 45, and not even make the game competitive. 

Taylor Epley's last 7 games: 23 ppg on shooting numbers of 65/55/93.   That is simply absurd, and his numbers have been best in the games he has been needed the most.  That is the good news for the Ephs.  The bad news is that Epley can't possibly continue that pace, and the other four starters have all had great games in that stretch, but also played a bit inconsistently.  It will be interesting to see as NESCAC play starts who else steps up to consistently carry the load on a game-to-game basis. 

[Pat Coleman]

Yep, 24 3's is not a Grinnell System team. They might be doing the old Loyola Marymount run and gun instead.

I'm sure that kids 10-15 are happy to be getting some meaningful playing time. That wouldn't happen in a "traditional" offense.

I dont really know if it is the " Grinnell System" or Loyola Marymount, but whatever it is that has "line changes" every 2.5 minutes is not the basketball players want to play except maybe kids 10-15 you refer to.  Were Hank Gathers and Bo Kimble part of a five man line which were pulled every few minutes?  I dont remember but doubt Westhead did that.  I believe that the coaches chances of getting top flight talent and winning on a consistent basis are greatly diminished with his style of play.   

Minutes weren't tracked yet in 1989 and 1990, but let me ask -- does RPI have a Hank Gathers or Bo Kimble who will score 29 and 35 points per game by taking multiple shifts? I doubt they do.

[frank uible]

Is any NESCAC team eagerly rushing to play Grinnell on an annual or even other basis?

[frank uible]

A quick pewrusal of Grinnell's archives discloses no NESCAC school has played Grinnell in basketball since Grinnell thrashed Colby, 116-77, in January of 2004.

[grabtherim]

A quick pewrusal of Grinnell's archives discloses no NESCAC school has played Grinnell in basketball since Grinnell thrashed Colby, 116-77, in January of 2004.

What does your quick pewrusal disclose on NCAA results, Final Four appearances?

[TheHerst2and4]

I dont really know if it is the " Grinnell System" or Loyola Marymount, but whatever it is that has "line changes" every 2.5 minutes is not the basketball players want to play except maybe kids 10-15 you refer to.       

My old high school coach used the line change philosophy. The length of the stints certainly varied depending upon talent level, however he had a valid point in favor of line changes. Stating the obvious but: players know when they are coming out and going in. It helps the players who are on the bench be mentally prepared to hop into the game and the yank doesn't affect the players on the court as much. How many times do you see a young player make a turn-over or miss a few jumpers and a coach pulls him only to completely throw off the kid's game? My high school coach's "line change" gameplan would be tweaked in game and down the stretch of tight games but the template made sense. As an aside he is the winningest coach in Massachusetts high school basketball.
I didn't watch the Midd-RPI game and I'm not arguing against any point on either side. Just plating some food for thought.

[frank uible]

It is inferred (the text is not crystal clear) from Wikipedia that in the last 19 years Grinnell using the System has lead the NCAA in annual scoring 17 times (presumably on a points per game basis), has been in post-season play eleven times and has been conference champ 5 times.

[nescac1]

If I was a coach, I would never schedule Grinnell or any other system school, unless for some reason I had players whose individual stats I was eager to bolster.  Basically, you have to change your entire mode of preparation for a single game, throwing off whatever you'd ordinarily be coaching that week.  And I don't think your players really grow from being allowed to score uncontested layups, and by playing defense on a team that just wants to lauch as many threes as quickly as possible.  And it must be sort of jarring playing your next game vs. a team that actually contests shots. 

[amh63]

TheHerst2and4....Thanks for the opinion!.....even though your last qualifying sentence sounds like it was written by a Lawyer!