MBB: NESCAC

[frank uible]

Just the facts.

[nescac1]

I think, Walzy, that you are a little too hard in particular on the CCIW and ODAC, and also on the OAC.  I'd say that the WIAC is clearly head and shoulders above the rest of D-3, and then the next tier would include the NESCAC, CCIW, ODAC, OAC, and MAYBE UAA in no particular order, but I'd put the UAA fifth among that group.  (MIAC is just behind, and NJAC used to be there too but seems to have fallen off a bit compared to its former peak).  IF any conference is number two, I'd probably saw CCIW over NESCAC.  CCIW typically has 3-4 teams at the Midd/Amherst/Williams level, we just don't get to see them because the Midwest/West is typically SO stacked in the NCAA tourney.  OAC, similar situation.  If Midd, Amherst, or Williams had to go through the occasional WIAC teams to make the Final Four (as CCIW teams sometimes do), I hate to say but we'd see them in Salem less often (and I say this as a Williams fan, whose team has been eliminated THREE times in Salem, including in two title games, by absolutely stacked WIAC teams).  Not to take away from NESCAC, because all of the NESCAC teams that have the made the Final Four since at least 2003 have clearly belonged there, and performed very well, either winning titles or losing in the Final Four in very close games.  But I do think you underrate the CCIW.  Wash U. had that amazing four year run for UAA, but after that group of players graduated, UAA hasn't really done much nationally relative to the other power conferences, and I think maybe it gets a bit too much credit because people remember just how dominant Wash. U was for a brief stretch.  And I'd disagree that UAA has a tougher road to Salem then NESCAC, since it can place schools in different regions, and the Rochester / NYU / Carnegie Mellon regions, for example, are all weaker than New England, typically.  And in New England, on a few occasions very strong Amherst and Williams squads have faced each other prior to the Final Four (with Williams winning each time, I'll note ). 

And UAA, even though it is a very small conference, typically has a few pretty weak teams.  Walzy also sells the ODAC short.  Virginia Wesleyan has been just as dominant as Wash U. over the past 5-7 years, but you also had a really nasty Guilford team (that Guilford team that Williams beat in the Final Four was really, REALLY good), and a consistently great Hampden-Sydney and Randolph Macon teams.

If I were to rank conferences, and it's not easy to do, I'd say something like WIAC, CCIW, NESCAC/ODAC, OAC, UAA.    This year, NESCAC is a bit down overall so based on this year alone, might be lower, but looking at the entire body of work over the past 10-15 years, NESCAC is clearly one of the 4-5 true power conferences.  UAA, more borderline in my opinion. 

[Ethelred the Unready]

I think, Walzy, that you are a little too hard in particular on the CCIW and ODAC, and also on the OAC.  I'd say that the WIAC is clearly head and shoulders above the rest of D-3, and then the next tier would include the NESCAC, CCIW, ODAC, OAC, and MAYBE UAA in no particular order, but I'd put the UAA fifth among that group.  (MIAC is just behind, and NJAC used to be there too but seems to have fallen off a bit compared to its former peak).  IF any conference is number two, I'd probably saw CCIW over NESCAC.  CCIW typically has 3-4 teams at the Midd/Amherst/Williams level, we just don't get to see them because the Midwest/West is typically SO stacked in the NCAA tourney.  OAC, similar situation.  If Midd, Amherst, or Williams had to go through the occasional WIAC teams to make the Final Four (as CCIW teams sometimes do), I hate to say but we'd see them in Salem less often (and I say this as a Williams fan, whose team has been eliminated THREE times in Salem, including in two title games, by absolutely stacked WIAC teams).  Not to take away from NESCAC, because all of the NESCAC teams that have the made the Final Four since at least 2003 have clearly belonged there, and performed very well, either winning titles or losing in the Final Four in very close games.  But I do think you underrate the CCIW.  Wash U. had that amazing four year run for UAA, but after that group of players graduated, UAA hasn't really done much nationally relative to the other power conferences, and I think maybe it gets a bit too much credit because people remember just how dominant Wash. U was for a brief stretch.  And I'd disagree that UAA has a tougher road to Salem then NESCAC, since it can place schools in different regions, and the Rochester / NYU / Carnegie Mellon regions, for example, are all weaker than New England, typically.  And in New England, on a few occasions very strong Amherst and Williams squads have faced each other prior to the Final Four (with Williams winning each time, I'll note ). 

And UAA, even though it is a very small conference, typically has a few pretty weak teams.  Walzy also sells the ODAC short.  Virginia Wesleyan has been just as dominant as Wash U. over the past 5-7 years, but you also had a really nasty Guilford team (that Guilford team that Williams beat in the Final Four was really, REALLY good), and a consistently great Hampden-Sydney and Randolph Macon teams.

If I were to rank conferences, and it's not easy to do, I'd say something like WIAC, CCIW, NESCAC/ODAC, OAC, UAA.    This year, NESCAC is a bit down overall so based on this year alone, might be lower, but looking at the entire body of work over the past 10-15 years, NESCAC is clearly one of the 4-5 true power conferences.  UAA, more borderline in my opinion.

For what it's worth, this is how Massey ranks the UAA/NESCAC conferences from 2008 - 12:  1/3, 4/14, 4/14, 8/3, 2/10.  Currently it's 2/19.

[nescac1]

Ethelred, in my estimation (and I'm definitely not alone), what it's worth is nothing. 

[Ethelred the Unready]

Ethelred, in my estimation (and I'm definitely not alone), what it's worth is nothing.

Because....?

[nescac1]

Ethelred, a variety of reasons, but first of all, the results speak for themselves.  Saying that the NESCAC could be the third best conference one year, and the NINETEENTH two years later, is inherently ridiculous.  It's just as ridiculous as the computer which (and yes, one did) ranked Alabama behind Notre Dame AFTER their title game match-up, or if a computer ranked, say, the Patriot League over the ACC in any given year.  Conferences do not swing as radically as that, and there is simply no way that a conference (even in a relatively down year) with three teams now ranked in the top 20 nationally by people who have at least somewhat of a clue is only the nineteenth best nationally.  Didn't someone also recently post that Massey has Tufts ranked ahead of Williams, even though Williams easily beat Tufts, at Tufts, is obviously a better team, and has only one loss vs. the, what, seven that Tufts has?  Same deal with Midd, which was ranked WELL behind Tufts.  However the system works, it's clearly silly.  And it's proven to be silly year after year, especially relatively early in the year.  There are just WAY too many teams in D-3, and most of them play WAY too regionally insular a schedule, for even a better system than Massey has to be terribly meaningful in terms of comparing teams between regions. 

[amh63]

Walzy....nice to hear from you....and the spread.
One new fact Frank......both you and Walzy get up to early for me...posting around 5 am!....but again, I am a late riser and as my best friend tells me....get some more hobbies.
With respect to Mr. Robinson with the "famous to some" relative...saw him a bit in the first Wes. game in Middletown.  I thought he came off the bench ? and had little impact in the game.  Posters can see him in LeFrak tonight.   
Also will see if the upgrade to the video will occur.
My bad as they say these days.....Seems the only Robinson on Wes. roster has been in and out of the starting lineup.  In the first game  with Amherst he was a starter and had 5 points and 3 rebounds in 22 minutes.  In the first Williams game, he did not start and was in for less than 5 minutes.  In the 2nd Williams game he had 9 points in about 30 plus minutes.  In the Midd. close lost, he was not a starter. 

[Bucket]

Walzy....nice to hear from you....and the spread.
One new fact Frank......both you and Walzy get up to early for me...posting around 5 am!....but again, I am a late riser and as my best friend tells me....get some more hobbies.
With respect to Mr. Robinson with the "famous to some" relative...saw him a bit in the first Wes. game in Middletown.  I thought he came off the bench ? and had little impact in the game.  Posters can see him in LeFrak tonight.   
Also will see if the upgrade to the video will occur.

Amh63: I believe the "real deal" Robinson that Walzy referred to, one Duncan Robinson, is a high school senior and Williams commit.

The other Robinson—shall we call him The First Nephew (?!)—came off the bench when Midd played Wes and had little to no impact on the game.

[madzillagd]

Lyndon has decided not to provide a webcast of the Williams game tonight which may turn out to be incredibly short-sighted if they can pull off the upset of the year.  I wouldn't exactly bet on them to do so though.  Tale of the tape....

Lyndon:
vs. Springfield:  Lost 87-60
vs. Castleton:   Lost 78-61

Williams:
vs. Springfield:  Won 84-69
vs. Castleton:   Won 96-52

Lyndon:
6 FR, 3 SO, 2 JR, 2 SR

Williams:
2 FR, 3 SO, 5 JR, 4 SR

Lyndon:
5-9, 5-10, 5-11, 5-11, 5-11, 6-1, 6-1, 6-2, 6-2, 6-3, 6-4, 6-4, 6-5

Williams:
6-1, 6-2, 6-3, 6-3, 6-3, 6-4, 6-5, 6-5, 6-6, 6-6, 6-7, 6-7, 6-9, 6-10

[amh63]

Another example of Williams' tough schedule.

[WPI89]

Tuesday January 15, 2013 NESCAC Spreads

Amherst -8.0 Vs. Wesleyan
O/U: 144.5

Wesleyan has been playing mostly close games.....not tonight.  Amherst and the over (thanks for the nudge over to the NESCAC board Am63)

[7express]

Amherst and under for Walzy's spread picks.
Williams and over on the other.  35 on the road is a lot of points

[madzillagd]

Another example of Williams' tough schedule.

Well they are .500 (6-6) so that makes them better than 8 of the 14 teams Amherst has played.   

[walzy31]

I think, Walzy, that you are a little too hard in particular on the CCIW and ODAC, and also on the OAC.  I'd say that the WIAC is clearly head and shoulders above the rest of D-3, and then the next tier would include the NESCAC, CCIW, ODAC, OAC, and MAYBE UAA in no particular order, but I'd put the UAA fifth among that group.  (MIAC is just behind, and NJAC used to be there too but seems to have fallen off a bit compared to its former peak).  IF any conference is number two, I'd probably saw CCIW over NESCAC.  CCIW typically has 3-4 teams at the Midd/Amherst/Williams level, we just don't get to see them because the Midwest/West is typically SO stacked in the NCAA tourney.  OAC, similar situation.  If Midd, Amherst, or Williams had to go through the occasional WIAC teams to make the Final Four (as CCIW teams sometimes do), I hate to say but we'd see them in Salem less often (and I say this as a Williams fan, whose team has been eliminated THREE times in Salem, including in two title games, by absolutely stacked WIAC teams).  Not to take away from NESCAC, because all of the NESCAC teams that have the made the Final Four since at least 2003 have clearly belonged there, and performed very well, either winning titles or losing in the Final Four in very close games.  But I do think you underrate the CCIW.  Wash U. had that amazing four year run for UAA, but after that group of players graduated, UAA hasn't really done much nationally relative to the other power conferences, and I think maybe it gets a bit too much credit because people remember just how dominant Wash. U was for a brief stretch.  And I'd disagree that UAA has a tougher road to Salem then NESCAC, since it can place schools in different regions, and the Rochester / NYU / Carnegie Mellon regions, for example, are all weaker than New England, typically.  And in New England, on a few occasions very strong Amherst and Williams squads have faced each other prior to the Final Four (with Williams winning each time, I'll note ). 

And UAA, even though it is a very small conference, typically has a few pretty weak teams.  Walzy also sells the ODAC short.  Virginia Wesleyan has been just as dominant as Wash U. over the past 5-7 years, but you also had a really nasty Guilford team (that Guilford team that Williams beat in the Final Four was really, REALLY good), and a consistently great Hampden-Sydney and Randolph Macon teams.

If I were to rank conferences, and it's not easy to do, I'd say something like WIAC, CCIW, NESCAC/ODAC, OAC, UAA.    This year, NESCAC is a bit down overall so based on this year alone, might be lower, but looking at the entire body of work over the past 10-15 years, NESCAC is clearly one of the 4-5 true power conferences.  UAA, more borderline in my opinion.

I'll agree with that I suppose. I follow NE D3hoops religiously, but am certainly regionally biased and hardly watch any national games until March.
I was backing UAA based on the 3-4 year window where Wash U was dominant, the Roch team that finished runner up with Hauben, and the Brandeis teams that consistently make the Elite 8.

[walzy31]

Lyndon has decided not to provide a webcast of the Williams game tonight which may turn out to be incredibly short-sighted if they can pull off the upset of the year.  I wouldn't exactly bet on them to do so though.  Tale of the tape....

Lyndon:
vs. Springfield:  Lost 87-60
vs. Castleton:   Lost 78-61

Williams:
vs. Springfield:  Won 84-69
vs. Castleton:   Won 96-52

Lyndon:
6 FR, 3 SO, 2 JR, 2 SR

Williams:
2 FR, 3 SO, 5 JR, 4 SR

Lyndon:
5-9, 5-10, 5-11, 5-11, 5-11, 6-1, 6-1, 6-2, 6-2, 6-3, 6-4, 6-4, 6-5

Williams:
6-1, 6-2, 6-3, 6-3, 6-3, 6-4, 6-5, 6-5, 6-6, 6-6, 6-7, 6-7, 6-9, 6-10

Williams -35.5 @ Lyndon
O/U: 141.0

My freshman year at Amherst the starting 11 of my soccer team was taller than Lyndon's basketball team.