MBB: NESCAC

[amh63]

Pat C......nice!  from your story on the D3hoops front page....you also plan to broadcast the games I believe.  If so, will it be different form the colleges broadcasts?  You could be leaving in the cold some hardworking Amherst announcers earning some spending money.  Is there some workplace compensation here for them?

[Pat Coleman]

College students really get paid to broadcast the games? I wish that had been a thing 20 years ago!

[nescac1]

Thanks LeFrakenstein, plus one.  The big outlier on PER is George Papadeas, a product of low minutes played and the previously-mentioned bias of PER in favor of big men who get a lot of boards and score a lot close to the basket.  Which makes Toomey's front-running status more impressive, actually.  I'd say if the season ended right now, Toomey would just edge Mayer out for POY, so both of your metrics are definitely getting it right for the top two, at least.  I'm kind of stunned that Epley is not on either list considering his high scoring volume and great overall shooting numbers, plus solid rebounding and assist numbers to go along with that.  Also surprised that Kizell is not on the PER list. 

The defensive contributions of guys like Thompson and Workman are of course also not factored in to the estimated wins added.  I can't imagine that either is less valuable, for example, than any of the three Tufts guys.  But yeah, Tufts is going to be a scary team in two years at the latest, and likely by next year, if those three guys stay healthy. 

In other stats watch, Bowdoin's Bryan Hurley is now averaging 8.1 assists per game.  I am not sure if there is a NESCAC record book for hoops anywhere, but that has to be one of the best assist averages in NESCAC history.  I think Mike Crotty was right around 8 pg in one of his all-American years.  Maybe Andrew Olson too ...  I'll be curious of Pat's in-person reaction on Friday, although Bowdoin still seems to be missing Keegan Pieri, which might lead to tough sledding for the Polar Bears vs. Midd and Williams. 

[toad22]

Toomey is clearly the single outstanding player in the NESCAC this year. Mayer is likely number two. Beyond that, there are about 6-10 that I've seen so far that are above the rest.

[Old Guy]

College students really get paid to broadcast the games? I wish that had been a thing 20 years ago! Pat Coleman

I don't mean to be unkind, but the Williams announcer, with the lamentable voice, called our all-league player, "kizz'l" (rhymes with sizzle). it's "Keye-zelle." Maybe do a little homework before the next NESCAC tilt.

[Old Guy]

I will admit that a winless season is embarrassing and painful. I played on a Williams team the went 2-17. That was almost as bad. Toad

That was not a basketball season, right. Williams has been good forever. They have not had a 2-17 season, or anything close, in the last seven decades in hoop. Williams' basketball: coin of the realm.

I don't mind that Williams plays a regular season game with Southern Vermont. We (Midd) play them. Also, So VT is right next door, in Bennington (14 miles). But . . . I'm not sure why the Ephs schedule them as the opening game in their tournament also. That seems discretionary to me. (And I admit to some sensitivity about the SOS discussion about Middlebury relative to the Jeffs/Ephs on this board earlier this season.)

[Old Guy]

I wonder why Midd and Wiilliams don't play Norwich anymore?  They aren't an exceptional team, but probably better than Southern Vt.  And the distance would allow for a mid week game. 

Norwich dropped us (Midd). My sense is we'd love to play them.

The Midd-Cadet rivalry in sports goes back, literally a century. When I was a student, before there were Divisions (like I said - "Old Guy"), the Vermont State Series was a big deal, on a scale with the Maine State Series (Bates/Bowdoin/Colby). In basketball, we played Norwich, St. Michael's, and UVM twice in basketball, and at least once in everything else. My senior year, we played the University of Vermont three times, once in an XMas tourney at AIC. Norwich has not been great the past few seasons, but not long ago (when the late Ed Hockenbury was the coach) they had some excellent teams. When I played, their coach was ex-Celtic Bob Brannum, an enormous guy (Bob Cousy's bodyguard). We had some spirited games.

[maineman]

I wonder why Midd and Wiilliams don't play Norwich anymore?  They aren't an exceptional team, but probably better than Southern Vt.  And the distance would allow for a mid week game. 

Norwich dropped us (Midd). My sense is we'd love to play them.

The Midd-Cadet rivalry in sports goes back, literally a century. When I was a student, before there were Divisions (like I said - "Old Guy"), the Vermont State Series was a big deal, on a scale with the Maine State Series (Bates/Bowdoin/Colby). In basketball, we played Norwich, St. Michael's, and UVM twice in basketball, and at least once in everything else. My senior year, we played the University of Vermont three times, once in an XMas tourney at AIC. Norwich has not been great the past few seasons, but not long ago (when the late Ed Hockenbury was the coach) they had some excellent teams. When I played, their coach was ex-Celtic Bob Brannum, an enormous guy (Bob Cousy's bodyguard). We had some spirited games.

Norwich does put an inordinate amount of money into hockey which detracts from their other programs, including basketball, but that doesn't mean that Norwich-Midd, Norwich-Williams wouldn't be better than games against the likes of So Vt, St Josephs, Green Mtn, Trinity (Vt), etc.  Of course they would have to agree to play again and get their nose bloodied most years.

[lefrakenstein]

Thanks LeFrakenstein, plus one.  The big outlier on PER is George Papadeas, a product of low minutes played and the previously-mentioned bias of PER in favor of big men who get a lot of boards and score a lot close to the basket.  Which makes Toomey's front-running status more impressive, actually.  I'd say if the season ended right now, Toomey would just edge Mayer out for POY, so both of your metrics are definitely getting it right for the top two, at least.  I'm kind of stunned that Epley is not on either list considering his high scoring volume and great overall shooting numbers, plus solid rebounding and assist numbers to go along with that.  Also surprised that Kizell is not on the PER list. 

The defensive contributions of guys like Thompson and Workman are of course also not factored in to the estimated wins added.  I can't imagine that either is less valuable, for example, than any of the three Tufts guys.  But yeah, Tufts is going to be a scary team in two years at the latest, and likely by next year, if those three guys stay healthy. 

In other stats watch, Bowdoin's Bryan Hurley is now averaging 8.1 assists per game.  I am not sure if there is a NESCAC record book for hoops anywhere, but that has to be one of the best assist averages in NESCAC history.  I think Mike Crotty was right around 8 pg in one of his all-American years.  Maybe Andrew Olson too ...  I'll be curious of Pat's in-person reaction on Friday, although Bowdoin still seems to be missing Keegan Pieri, which might lead to tough sledding for the Polar Bears vs. Midd and Williams.

Epley is 13th in EWA and 16th in PER. He's kind of in the S. Wheeler mold .... super valuable as a floor-spacing forward, but doesn't stuff the stat sheet in a lot of other ways. He has 1 steal and 0 blocks in 6 NESCAC games and only 17 rebounds despite playing heavy minutes.

Workman usually does just fine in the PER category even without his defense factoring in. He finished 6th last year in EWA. He got kind of unlucky (as if he cares about his PER) by having such a huge game in the Williams out-of-conference game. Those numbers would really give him a big boost. Workman and Thompson are alike in a lot of ways, but Workman gets a lot more rebounds, blocks and steals. Thompson though, is the better shooter and a probably a slightly better man-to-man defender (from what I hear... I don't get to see a lot of Midd games)

Also, it's kind of a down year for the cream of the crop of the NESCAC so far. No one is putting up insane per-minute numbers like Mayer last year or Whittington the year before that. Toomey so far this year would have ranked 4th last year (the same as what he actually finished) or 3rd the year before that.

On the bright side, Luis Serota of Hamilton is averaging 120 points/40 min on 40/40 shooting from behind the arc. That's good for a PER of 117.54. Hopefully his second minute of playing time will be as explosive as his first.

[walzy31]

Workman and Thompson are alike in a lot of ways, but Workman gets a lot more rebounds, blocks and steals. Thompson though, is the better shooter and a probably a slightly better man-to-man defender (from what I hear... I don't get to see a lot of Midd games)

I would really dislike trying to get any sort of quality shot off against Workman anywhere on the court (a lot like Tim Edwards). Similarly, if my coach told me to "dribble from here to there," I would not want to have Thompson anywhere within ten feet of me. If it was "take a shot in the lane," please don't leave Andrew Locke or Drew Cohen in the lane waiting for me. If I have to a pass to a teammate I hope neither of us are being guarded by Adam Harper because it's probably going the other way for two.

Add in Zak Ray, Tim McLaughlin, Jaris Cole, and John Halas and that would probably be my Top 9 All-NESCAC Defense team from 2003-Present.

Wait, imagine a team that lines up Zak Ray at the 1, Thompson at the 2, Workman/Harper at the 3, Edwards/McLaughlin at the 4, and Cohen/Locke at the 5. Jaris Cole and Halas come in to lock up other guys and score.
They would win every game 41-25.

[nescac1]

That's a pretty solid list, Waltzy.  I might find a place for Troy Whittington as well, but otherwise, no quarrels.  Salerno from Amherst could also lock guys down in the limited minutes he played.  From before your time in the 90s era Botti and Frew from Williams and Zalaski from Amherst also stand out in my mind. 

[Old Guy]

They would win every game 41-25.

No way. Add Whittington and they win every game 61-25. These great defenders played offense too.

Our guy, Thompson, often plays as much offense as he has to, or is asked to: 13 points on eight shots/game. Not bad. (I know Thompson does not need a lot of promoting, but I just took a look at his numbers: 43% from three; 85% from the line; five boards a game. Quietly excellent.)

[7express]

I'll take a loss for Eastern tonight Walzy, thanks!

[toad22]

Williams did endure a 2-17 season in the 1968-69 season. We were mostly 1st years (sophs)' and it was not fun.

[Panthernation]

College students really get paid to broadcast the games? I wish that had been a thing 20 years ago!

We certainly don't get paid to do our broadcasts at Middlebury. Things might be different at Amherst, though. You never know with the Lord Jeffs.