MBB: NESCAC

[nescac1]

Dave, I guess I don't see this the same way as you ... I don't see it as "protection" just because you don't have to face other NESCAC teams, when you end up playing other teams which are just as good or arguably better.  I don't think Williams, Amherst, and Midd are better off playing Cabrini, St. Thomas, and North Central then they would have been playing each other, for example.  I just feel like in spite of (or maybe because of) all its tourney success, NESCAC gets picked apart and scrutinized no matter how things shake out.

For example, in years when all the New England teams are bunched together, there seems to be all sorts of criticism from the Midwest / West regarding how the elite NESCAC teams don't have to face anyone good en route to the final four.  Well, now the NESCAC teams don't get to beat up on New England, and are spread around so they have to beat teams from evey other region to make the Final Four.  And somehow that is unfair to the rest of D-3 too.  Williams had as tough a path to Salem as anyone I believe.  And all three teams will have to beat a damn, damn good team to make the Final Four.  I don't see why it should matter if that team is a conference rival (in which case the commentary would surely be, see, NESCAC can't beat any REAL teams from the Midwest or West to make a Final Four) or an elite team from elsewhere in the country.  Damned if they do, damned if they don't, it seems like (and yes, I am combining multiple years worth of commentary about NESCAC here, but it's a running theme every tourney it seems, so it's not just your commentary in isolation I'm responding to, but rather to this idea that however the tourney is structured, it somehow ends up in some posters' minds being unfairly accomodating to NESCAC squads).  So yeah, I am reading your comments in context with a lot of other folks' criticism about NESCAC over the years, which is maybe why I am a bit sensitive.  But most frustrating of all is that exactly what people were calling for -- NESCAC teams having to prove themselves out of a Northeast-heavy bracket -- is what is happening, and somehow, now THAT consitutes "protection."  Perhaps "protection" was just a poor word choice by you because it does have a pejorative connotation. 

Also important to note is how much bigger New England is than other regions, and how geographically proximate most of the New England teams are to FOUR others regions.  More teams in the tourney plus more geographically proximate potential opponents will always make it easier to spread New England teams out more.  I'm sure if there were 15 teams from the west coast in the tourney, they'd be spread out, too. 

And I agree that NESCAC was not strong behind the top four teams this year, no doubt about that.  But I disagree that sending teams to different brackets where they have to face other elite teams constitutes "protection."  I think part of the fun of the tourney is, to the extent financial and logistically feasible, to go up against teams you don't usually see to find out how you match ups.  So I am glad NESCAC was split up (note, not "protected") in that fashion.  Do I think WIAC or CCIW should if possible be treated the same way?  Absolutely I do.  But I'm not the NCAA, of course ...

And AO, some folks seem to think that NESCAC only gets to Salem by virtue of good seeding.  NESCAC teams, though, win at exactly the rate you'd expect in Salem.  Amherst has made four final fours: 1 title, 1 second place, 2 semi losses.  Williams has made six final fours: 1 title, 2 second place (all three games went down to the last possession or two), three semifinal losses.  And so on.  The 2003 and 2004 Williams teams, 2007 and 2008 Amherst teams, and 2010 Williams teams, at a minimum were all clearly among the top 1-3 teams in the country.  The 2011 Midd and Williams teams each lost in the semis by about a millimeter.  All of these squads belonged in Salem, and none were gifted their positions by virtue of seeding.  That is my point.  How many conferences, outside of WIAC, have two national champs and three more second place finishes since 2003?  If NESCAC kept reaching the Final Four and falling flat on its face, well, yeah, that would be a different story.  Hasn't happened.  Won't happen this year for any NESCAC teams who win on Friday. 

And by the way, I agree that Williams and Midd are underdogs ... but regardless, bulletin board material is bulletin board material, either way . 

[nescac1]

survive and advance, woops, I missed Choice-Durant.  I think that is fair. 

If you are starting from 1998 the easy choice for me for top overall NESCAC draft pick would be Mike Nogelo (who barely squeezes in, class of 1998).  May have been before your time.  Easily the best player I've seen in NESCAC.  Single-handedly carried two Williams teams featuring just-OK talent around him to Final Fours.  Three time all-American.  Etc.  After him it would be a tough call between Coffin, Whittington, Olsen, Crotty, Kareem Tatum, Jamal Wilson, Sharry, and Toomey.  I'd probably go with either Olsen or Coffin. 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

nescac1, you act like I have no clue how this works... I have defended the committee, especially to those in the Midwest and West, and how the Northeast and such is bracketed because of how many teams are east of the Appalachians and the fact that 500 miles is REALLY easy to help diversify the games between different regions. This year, of all years, the Midwest and West were hamstrung by two major problems: they didn't have a lot of extra teams make the tournament (just one could have made a big difference in match-ups) and the geography restrictions were more pronounced than in the past with since game weekends.

Again, I understand why the NESCAC teams are spread out and how they can avoid playing each other for as long as possible, but to some extent they got a lot of benefits this year. The ODAC had four teams in the tournament and even they would have had to face off in the Elite 8 (earlier than the NESCAC). Again, the two NCAC teams (Ohio Wesleyan and Wooster) didn't get the same treatment with a potential Sweet 16 game even though they were both ranked higher together than any combination of NESCAC teams - and yes, you could have found a way to get that game separated.

So don't assume you know my point of view. Last night was the first time I indicated it didn't seem great that all three NESCAC teams don't have to face each other until the final four. And again, I am not saying they didn't have challenging roads to get to where they are... but they weren't as challenging for all kinds of reasons as other teams.

But you also have to understand when people from other regions see teams from one conference spread out... no matter the reason... it seems unfair - and I think they have a point. The 500 mile rule is a benefit for many reasons, but especially for the tight geography of the Northeast and eastern seaboard. It isn't as fair as you move further west and the number of schools per capita starts to fall. The NESCAC is lucky because believe it or not they can get teams to Salem through less challenging brackets than the Midwest teams. While there may be more teams in the Northeast that are high quality, there are also far more sub-par teams in the tournament from sub-par conferences... which allows early round games to be easier for the top teams. There are less teams like that in the Midwest and West and even Great Lakes and because of the lack of flights, these top teams have to defeat each other to earn a trip to Salem. Not once have you seen the CCIW or WIAC or any other conference have two teams on the opposite side of a bracket like the NESCAC has gotten a lot. And at no time do you see a Middlebury/Amherst game even in the Sweet 16 because there are a number of lower ranked teams to play from as far away as the Mid-Atlantic to help diversify the bracket.

That all adds up to an advantage. Certainly the NESCAC has won a few titles as well... BUT more titles have come out of the Midwest and West in the last ten years but less teams from those regions have made it to the final four because they have to knock each other out first.

[Panthernation]

What i really didn't understand is what the heck was Ithaca's coaching strategy down the stretch?  With a minute left, Midd ball, Ithaca not yet in the bonus, and Midd up I think one, Ithaca started intentionally fouling.  Huh?  Why not just play defense and try to get a stop ... even if Midd scores, you can still tie with a three, and if they don't, you have the ball with a chance to win.  Now, it almost paid off since Midd missed a few front-end of one-and-ones, but it was one of the weirdest coaching decisions I've ever seen.  Not only did they not even try to get a defensive top, they ended up eating up a ton of game clock since they had so many fouls to give.  Utterly inexplicable.

I wanted to chime in with a guess (was out of town so missed the chance to earlier)

It's possible Ithaca's strategy was affected by Midd's unconscious three-point shooting. Wolfin and Thompson were both 6-of-10 from three. You have to get your team into the bonus quickly because if Midd hits another three after say 25 seconds (a possibility) then you're down four and you're really behind the eight ball. Even if you hit a three quick, you're down to maybe 25-30 seconds left and still down and now it's a race against the clock just to foul. Normally, I'd say play for the stop, but I don't mind fouling there if the goal is to give you options to extend the game later. You can almost always make up points, but never clock.

Tough loss for IC, but Midd made the smart play and went after Oztemel, who, while a great 4-year player, was probably IC's weakest defender. Overall, a great game between 2 great teams, and the better team won.

(And yes, fouls are fouls regardless of when or where they occur.)

Nescac1,

The decision to foul there isn't as inexplicable as you say it is. Peter Lynch got a defensive rebound with exactly one minute left (per d3hoops' play-by-play), and was fouled (unintentionally) by Eli Maravich with 56 seconds to go, giving Middlebury a new 35-second shot clock. Ithaca then called timeout, which is when the decision to foul was made, I presume.

There's certainly an argument not to foul, but I'm not sure it's obviously the better decision. Here's how I think the non-fouling scenario plays out.

Given the situation, Middlebury would have taken a shot with about 25-23 seconds left and even if they miss, or only make a 2, Ithaca needs a basket on the other end and is probably getting the rebound or inbounding the ball with 20 seconds or so left on the clock. Assuming it still takes 7-8 seconds to get a good look (which is how long it took for Ithaca to score both times in that situation), you are either taking the lead with 12 seconds remaining (which still gives Middlebury a chance to win it on the other end) or you miss and Middlebury comes down with a rebound with about 10 seconds left.

At that point you still need to foul four times just to put Middlebury on the line. Of course, that also gives you three chances to steal the inbound pass or get a 5-second call (although Middlebury still had 2 timeouts remaining at this point I believe), but in all likelihood Middlebury is going to the line with very little time on the clock, which probably gives you a shot at the buzzer to tie or win the game.

As Bombers798891 said too, given how Middlebury was shooting the ball, coach Mullins was probably also considering that that they might make a three. If Middlebury hits a three to go up four with 20ish seconds remaining and you need to score and then foul four times to put them on the line and then score again, the game is pretty much over.

One other interesting thing of note, Oztemel entered the game after the 9th team foul sent Nolan Thompson to the free throw line for the second time in anticipation of needing a three to tie the game. He replaced Jordan Healey, a better defender, but not a three-point shooter. But because Thompson missed the front end, Ithaca didn't need the three. Instead, Mitchell made the layup, but Oztemel committed the foul on the other end.

It's always dangerous to play the "what if" game, but it's interesting to note in this case. Of course this isn't the fault of Mullins, who couldn't have foreseen the way things played out. It's just interesting to note that even the good coaching decisions can come back and hurt you, as I believe was the case with Mullins' decision to intentionally foul from the get-go.

[lefrakenstein]

Toomey wins NABC northeast player of the year. Workman and Mayer also make the first team. Thompson is named to the second team. Hixon wins coach of the year.

[amh63]

Side notes comments:
Bomber posters....Why the "mascot"?.....Spoke to my daughter on the matter and she informed me that Ithaca recently went thru a recent "rebranding"....to a bird symbol?  Will check further.
You know it is "March Madness" for the rest of the BB world (vice D3 boards) when my paper of choice, the WSJ includes a Div1 bracket.  Has even included  a contest to pick the winner.....a blindfold type selection method.....where the WSJ tries to remove the bias everyone seems to have in the selection process....the method seems to remove the name of the school!....interesting.
I laugh when I hear on media outlets that suggest the best way to win....like giving it to a relative that knows nothing about college BB.  I run a family/friend bracket pick contest every year with monetary rewards.  Over the past 5 years or so, it seems the best pickers are the women members with the least interest or knowledge of the schools and the game.  Tells you something.  The women have attended Big East and ACC schools where BB is big.  Going to ask my daughter to get my grand child to put in a selection.   Since this board is getting "pc" sensitive....no ethnic, racist or sexist? intentions here.
To the newest member of this board.....I am not a "fantasy" game player in sports......too hard for my aging mind.  However, still not satisfied with any comparison picks with my favorite player this year....Willy Workman.  Been thinking about left-handers and keep going back to an old timer that was tough minded and very competative....Bob Petitit...the southerner from LSU that played in a NBA title run with a broken hand in a cast.  He was taller than Willy, around 6'9" but had a slim built like Willy.  Lasted 11 years in the NBA and scored over 20,000 points....had almost  a 25 point average.   Came out of LSU in '54 and played for the Hawks.

[WPI89]

nescac1, you act like I have no clue how this works... I have defended the committee, especially to those in the Midwest and West, and how the Northeast and such is bracketed because of how many teams are east of the Appalachians and the fact that 500 miles is REALLY easy to help diversify the games between different regions. This year, of all years, the Midwest and West were hamstrung by two major problems: they didn't have a lot of extra teams make the tournament (just one could have made a big difference in match-ups) and the geography restrictions were more pronounced than in the past with since game weekends.

Again, I understand why the NESCAC teams are spread out and how they can avoid playing each other for as long as possible, but to some extent they got a lot of benefits this year. The ODAC had four teams in the tournament and even they would have had to face off in the Elite 8 (earlier than the NESCAC). Again, the two NCAC teams (Ohio Wesleyan and Wooster) didn't get the same treatment with a potential Sweet 16 game even though they were both ranked higher together than any combination of NESCAC teams - and yes, you could have found a way to get that game separated.

So don't assume you know my point of view. Last night was the first time I indicated it didn't seem great that all three NESCAC teams don't have to face each other until the final four. And again, I am not saying they didn't have challenging roads to get to where they are... but they weren't as challenging for all kinds of reasons as other teams.

But you also have to understand when people from other regions see teams from one conference spread out... no matter the reason... it seems unfair - and I think they have a point. The 500 mile rule is a benefit for many reasons, but especially for the tight geography of the Northeast and eastern seaboard. It isn't as fair as you move further west and the number of schools per capita starts to fall. The NESCAC is lucky because believe it or not they can get teams to Salem through less challenging brackets than the Midwest teams. While there may be more teams in the Northeast that are high quality, there are also far more sub-par teams in the tournament from sub-par conferences... which allows early round games to be easier for the top teams. There are less teams like that in the Midwest and West and even Great Lakes and because of the lack of flights, these top teams have to defeat each other to earn a trip to Salem. Not once have you seen the CCIW or WIAC or any other conference have two teams on the opposite side of a bracket like the NESCAC has gotten a lot. And at no time do you see a Middlebury/Amherst game even in the Sweet 16 because there are a number of lower ranked teams to play from as far away as the Mid-Atlantic to help diversify the bracket.

That all adds up to an advantage. Certainly the NESCAC has won a few titles as well... BUT more titles have come out of the Midwest and West in the last ten years but less teams from those regions have made it to the final four because they have to knock each other out first.

Dave - you seem all over the place on this one?  I read almost all of your comments (on the NE boards) and am almost always (like 98%) on your side of the discussion.  Not this time.

First - your definition of protection in this case was OK for 2 of the teams but not Middlebury.  Even if that were true - how could you protect Williams/Amherst but not Middlebury - if you "un-protected Midlebury"" based on your definition - they would have to play Amherst or Williams - thus "un-protecting" one of them as well.

Second - you are saying the west and midwest have won as many titles in the last 10 years.....so now the NESCAC has to be compared to whole regions to make a fair argument?

Believe me- I am a NE loyalist but hardly a NESCAC apologist...........just saying on this one - you may seem to have a bit of an agenda?

[nescac1]

Dave, I understanding that YOU know how this works, but in countering your argument, I feel like I need to spell out the full range of counterarguments so others reading can understand the full picture. 

I really don't think you are addressing my main points, though.  My first central point is this: when NESCAC teams are bunched with other New England teams, and each other, in one quarter of the bracket (as happened consistently until the last few years), the Midwest / West posters would often complain how unfair it was that NESCAC teams didn't have to face powerful teams from purportedly stronger regions on the way to Salem.  Now, when NESCAC teams are spread out, and had to face power teams from other regions (excluding Midd, but the Panthers were bracketed to face the top East team on the road, upsets do happen), their tourney path is still, apparently, not fully legitimate in the eyes of some.  All I know is, one of the four brackets was consistently weaker than the other three this year, and if the NCAA wanted to "protect" NESCAC teams, it would have sent at least one, as opposed to zero, there.  And it would not have paired Williams with another top-10 team in Round 2.  Short of pairing Williams and Amherst against each other in the first round every year, I'm not really sure what the NCAA can do to convince the rest of D-3 that NESCAC is not the favored child.  Like I said, damned if you do, damned if you don't. 

Second, not facing another NESCAC squad to get to the Final Four is only a benefit if that game is replaced by an inferior opponent.  Teams like North Central, St. Thomas, and Virginia Wesleyan are not inferior to anyone.  If Williams had played, say, Middlebury instead of Catholic or VWU in the last two rounds, would have been a tougher match-up?  All three are roughly equivalent in my book.  So really, I don't see where you get this "protection" thing.  "Protection" suggests an easier path, and that simply isn't the case.  Not for Williams, at least.  If they make the Final Four Williams this year will have beaten St. Thomas, Catholic, Virginia Wesleyan, and Wesley.  The current number one, a top-ten team, the pre-season number one, and a damn tough first round opponent who showed they can beat anyone during the season.  I'd put that up against ANY tourney team.  The last time Williams made Salem, they beat two underrated teams from New England which, trust me, had ample talent in Husson and Becker, and then two recent champions with elite talent in Amherst (who last I checked was a NESCAC team) and VWU.  Probably not the toughest path to Salem that year, but certainly more than respectable.  So, again, at least for Williams, they are not the beneficiary of any sort of "protection" by virtue of their bracket placement.   

Panthernation, regarding the coaching move, interesting analysis.  I'm still not convinced and I think the probabilities are likely better without fouling, but I could be wrong.  I think we both rely upon the same key fact as central to our points ... for me, the fact that they had three fouls to give, and had to kill a ton of time simply to put Midd on the line, is what made it so questionable ... even though Midd was shooting well, the D is going to really tighten up in a one-possession situation, and Ithaca was getting the ball back with plenty of time on the (at least 20 seconds, but that assumes Midd uses EVERY second of the shot clock, so probably 5-10 seconds more) with time to set for a game-winning or maybe game-tying play.  I like those odds a lot better than killing half the remaining clock with a series of fouls and then hoping Midd misses free throws. 

[Panthernation]

Ithaca gift wrapped the end of that game on Saturday and the Panthers had to really dig deep to get past Cortland State. They did win both games and I give them that credit... but they are up against North Central who is a really physical team who also may play faster than nearly any other team Middlebury has played this year. If Amherst is as fast as NCC, they aren't even close to as physical. Middlebury has a bunch of team players, but no one you can expect to step up and take over when he has to... that could be a major factor against an NCC team that has three guys who can take over at any point in the game.

So on paper, Middlebury doesn't look like a winner versus NCC - but that is the key... and why I said it... on paper. When anyone tries to break a game down or try and figure out who can or can't win... it is based on the term "paper." They have to play the games and while match-ups don't look right or something doesn't seem to add up, the games reveal what we can't expect in looking at all the video and box scores in the world.

Dave,

I have no problem with your "on paper" point about Middlebury, and I think I would probably agree. However, I think in your haste to defend your position you've vastly simplified Middlebury's last two tournament wins and how Middlebury plays as a team.

I have a couple of problems with how you've characterized the team and their tournament success thus far...

First, I have no idea how you think Ithaca "gift-wrapped" the end of that game, unless we were watching entirely different games. Are you talking about one play at the end of the game in which a player made a mistake in a high-pressure situation? Because players do that all the time and it's hardly gift-wrapping. Further, if Oztemel hadn't been there, Kizel would have continued to the hoop and probably scored.

Which gets me to my second point ... have you seen Joey Kizel play in big games? He is exactly the kind of player who takes over games, which, coincidentally, gets to the Cortland State game. Kizel (22 points, 7-12 shooting) was superlative in that game, and has been over the past month (and really all season). I have never seen a player with better command of "the moment" than Joey Kizel.

Getting to the Cortland State game, yes Middlebury "had to really dig deep" to beat Cortland State. They were playing against a team that was 13-0 at home and had won 12 of those games by 10 or more points! The Massey Index game Middlebury a 21% chance to win the game. Typically you have to dig really deep, regardless of how good you are, to beat that kind of team. I don't see how that can possibly be seen as a critique of this team in any way but positive.

And finally, when you say that Middlebury has "a bunch of team players" you insult their basketball capabilities, particularly so when you suggest that they can't take over games. Let's look at how Peter Lynch, Nolan Thompson, Jake Wolfin and Joey Kizel have all taken over "big games" against their best opponents so far this season.

Jan. 26 @Williams (64-63 L) — Peter Lynch: 16 points in 16 minutes on 7-9 shooting (foul trouble).
Feb. 12 Amherst (104-101 3OT L) — Joey Kizel: 30 points, 8-17 FG, 5-10 3PT, 9-10 FT, Jake Wolfin: 16 points, scored 10 STRAIGHT points for Middlebury in the first OT alone
Feb. 23 Williams (87-80 OT L) — Peter Lynch: 23 points, 12 rebounds, 10-17 FG
March 9 @Cortland State (67-63 W) — Joey Kizel: 22 points, 7-12 shooting
March 16 Ithaca (73-72 W) — Jake Wolfin: 20 points, 7-13 shooting,  6-10 from three, Nolan Thompson: 20 points, 6-12 shooting, 6-10 from three

Now like I said, there are certainly reasons to pick North Central to win this game. But alleging that Middlebury doesn't have players who can take over a game is not one of them, and will be the reason you miscalculate this game if you pick North Central to coast, or win by any kind of substantial margin. Don't forget that this group of Middlebury seniors hasn't lost a game in three years that hasn't come down to the final possession of regulation.

[nescac1]

Agreed with Panthernation on Kizell.  He is a big game player who can take over vs. elite competition.  Consistently underrated nationally. 

If  you want to get technical, Panthernation, Middlebury has not lost a game in regulation in more than three years by more than one possession .  Either way, pretty darn impressive. 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

First off, my point about protection is allowing the NESCAC to get three teams to the final four without having to face each other - they don't have to knock each other out of the tournament. No other conference in the tournament got that protection. At some point a conference would have had two teams up against one another as late as the quarterfinals. Yes... it isn't "protecting" two of the NESCAC teams by having to have them play earlier, but I think the committee gave Middlebury a more favorable trip than the third place team in a conference and fifth ranked team in a conference deserved. And while it might have meant Amherst going home and Middlebury moving on... I don't agree that leaving that match-up for possibly the final four made the most sense. So again, my "protection" line is to allow the NESCAC the chance at three of the four spots in the semifinals.

By the way, preseason #1 was MIT... though, Virginia Wesleyan took over the #1 spot in Week #2 .

As for my comment about more titles from the midwest and west... I am saying this: more titles have come from that area of the country despite the fact less teams from that area of the country have gotten to Salem than say the eastern half of the country. They have to beat each other just to get to Salem and win a title. The NESCAC hasn't had to beat each other; some of the best teams in the east don't have to beat each other because the mileage allows them more diverse and maybe less challenging opponents along the way. Do you think York, F&M, or E-town was one of the four best teams in the country during their runs to the final fours? They had easy brackets.

Now a lot has certainly changed with the brackets and I am not saying we have to change things because I understand how this all works with mileage and such... but to argue that the NESCAC has proven to be one of the best in the country because of the number of teams they get late into the tournament and especially to Salem is not true. They actually do get easier brackets, especially early round games, than some of the best teams in the country due to the fact there are so many more teams and far more flexibility in the bracketing. That isn't anyone's fault... but to hang your hat on that fact is slightly flawed is all I am saying.

I don't have any agenda at all... I just see the reality. I would love to have a national tournament, but it isn't going to happen. I know where some of the best teams in the country are and they come from around the country. However, I do have a problem when arguing the Northeast has the best teams in the country because they show up in Salem; I do wish the bracket was more fair but there is only so much we can do especially this year; I do understand some of what those in the Midwest and West are saying - though, I also think they go over the deep end and have told them that as well.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they have an agenda or what not. I am more neutral than almost any person on these boards (there are a handful, that's it)... so I see all sides and I understand all sides. I don't have any dog in the fight and by this point even if my alma mater was in the fight, it wouldn't sway me.

[Panthernation]

Agreed with Panthernation on Kizell.  He is a big game player who can take over vs. elite competition.  Consistently underrated nationally. 

If  you want to get technical, Panthernation, Middlebury has not lost a game in regulation in more than three years by more than one possession .  Either way, pretty darn impressive.

Nescac1, you are correct. I made that change as you posted this.

[Pat Coleman]

I don't mind the NESCAC having to play the Midwest and West for the right to go to the Final Four. (Could have been the Great Lakes, too, if the Great Lakes had made it that far.) I think that is reasonable, especially in this year where the bracket allows it to happen without extra travel costs being baked in.

[madzillagd]

The goal should be that the best teams make it the farthest in the tournament so we get the best games (and hopefully the best team wins the championship).  In D1 they do this by seeding the teams obviously and spreading them out around the country to try and get that result.  We don't get that luxury with the travel restrictions, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to get the best teams there with the system we have.  Seems to me like they did a pretty good job of letting that happen this year and the top teams have responded. 

The Top 8 in the last D3 Poll:

1. St Thomas
2. Amherst
3. NCC
4. WPI
5. UW-WW
6. Whitworth
7. Midd
8. Williams

The Elite Eight:

1. St Thomas
2. Amherst
3. NCC
4. St. Mary's
5. Cabrini
6. MHB
7. Midd
8. Williams

Whitworth lost, but should have been the 6th team (you can go to the NWC boards for last week and see why I never thought WW should have been ranked that high to begin with).  Correct me if I'm wrong but the best we could have done was have 6 of 8 top teams in the Elite Eight because a Amherst/WPI matchup or NCC/UW-WW matchup would eliminate 2 of the top 8 teams.  One of those games happened, one of them didn't.  Regardless, we got 5 of 8 and that's pretty good in my book.

[nescac1]

Last point I'll make because I think I've otherwise exhausted what I have to say on this: I agree that some of those Mid-Atlantic teams were not among the best in the country, and in some cases had really easy paths to Salem.  And guess what?  In several cases, they tanked in the Final Four, as you would expect. 

If the NESCAC teams that made it to Salem were not among the top five or so teams nationally in any given year, they would have tanked in Salem.  Never happened.  The point I made before is that the NESCAC teams PROVED they belonged when they got to the Final Four.  They ALL walked the walk.  In 2003, I'd say that Amherst and Williams were easily two of the top five teams in the country (Williams won the title after knocking Amherst off in the Elite 8, so they didn't even make it to Salem).  In 2004, Williams lost by a basket to one of the better D-3 teams from recent years, after barely edging a very, very good Amherst team in the semis.  In 2007, Amherst won the title with ease, and they made it back to the title game in 2008.  In 2010 Williams made it to the title game after beating a LOADED Guilford team, and nearly pulled out a second title.  In 2011, Williams was a rimmed-out shot away from playing for the title despite its best player playing at 50 percent with a broken hand and second-best player soon to undergo major back surgery.  Midd was also one shot away from beating eventually champ St. Thomas.  Every NESCAC team to play in the Final Four during the past decade has PROVEN in Salem that they are among the very top teams in the country.  I'm sure another 3-4 teams from the Midwest or West could have competed in the Final Fours those years, and maybe would have made it with better bracket fortune, I'm not saying that only four teams played at an elite enough level to credibly contend for a title, but it is EGREGIOUSLY unfair to those Amherst, Williams, and Midd squads, which all won titles or easily were good enough to do so, to say that NESCAC hasn't "proven" to be among the best in the country.  That is demonstrably false: all were legitimate Final Four teams, and all proved it.  NESCAC right now has three of the top ten hoops programs in the NCAA.  No doubt about that.  It is one of the elite conferences in D-3 and I have little doubt that the 2003-4 Amherst/Williams teams, 2007-08 Amherst teams, the 2011 Midd team, and the 2010-11 Williams teams, to name a few, would have kicked butt in any bracket.  Same with the a few of this year's squads.