MBB: NESCAC

[middhoops]

While a NESCAC/UAA series may be a more natural fit, I'd travel to see a NESCAC/CCIW playdown.  Great idea.

[toad22]

NESCAC/ODAC is the way to go.

[gordonmann]

Yep.  You could play the games in, say, Owings Mills, Maryland. Make it happen, Dave McHugh!

[frank uible]

St. Michael's played intercollegiate football until the 50s.

[Vandy74]

St. Michael's played intercollegiate football until the 50s.

Thanks for that info Frank.  I'm not old enough to remember that.  Almost  , but not quite.

[Vandy74]

St. Michael's played intercollegiate football until the 50s.

The NY Giants held their pre-season training camp at St. Michael's from 1956-60.  I was only 8 years old the last time they were there.  My best friend was two years older than I was and his teenage brother always took him up to Colchester to watch them play.  I was insanely jealous.  My mother wouldn't let me go along.  I always figured St Mike's must have played football at some point in time for the facilities to be there but I never bothered to check it out.  Most native Vermonters over the age of 55 or so root for the Giant's, not the Patriots.

[Old Guy]

Back on the board, after taking some time off (baseball season). I found the discussion of the relative greatness of Amherst and Williams teams by AmherstStudent05 and NESCAC1 interesting, though I don't have the depth of specific knowledge of those teams to evaluate their comparative arguments.

So my question is: where does Johnny-Come-Lately, that is, the 2011 Middlebury team, with Locke & Sharry (and Wolfin, Thompson, Kizel,and Jamal Davis), etc. stack up against these great Eph-Jeff teams? Midd beat terrific Amherst (Meehan, Workman, Waller, Barise, Kaasila, Toomey) & Williams (Whittington, Wang, Klemm) teams to win the NESCAC tourney at Chandler that year, then went to the final four, losing by one possession to St.Thomas in the semis, who then crushed Wooster (who had edged the Ephs in the semis) the next day for the national championship.

Is that Panther team in the same discussion as Amherst 2003,2007,08, 2013, and Williams 1996, 2003, 04, 2010?

[lefrakenstein]

Back on the board, after taking some time off (baseball season). I found the discussion of the relative greatness of Amherst and Williams teams by AmherstStudent05 and NESCAC1 interesting, though I don't have the depth of specific knowledge of those teams to evaluate their comparative arguments.

So my question is: where does Johnny-Come-Lately, that is, the 2011 Middlebury team, with Locke & Sharry (and Wolfin, Thompson, Kizel,and Jamal Davis), etc. stack up against these great Eph-Jeff teams? Midd beat terrific Amherst (Meehan, Workman, Waller, Barise, Kaasila, Toomey) & Williams (Whittington, Wang, Klemm) teams to win the NESCAC tourney at Chandler that year, then went to the final four, losing by one possession to St.Thomas in the semis, who then crushed Wooster (who had edged the Ephs in the semis) the next day for the national championship.

Is that Panther team in the same discussion as Amherst 2003,2007,08, 2013, and Williams 1996, 2003, 04, 2010?

In terms of sheer accomplishment, I think they're a little short, as they didn't win the NESCAC regular season or make a national championship, but in terms of talent, I think they could definitely hang with that group. I think of all those teams the worst matchup for Midd 11 would be the Amherst '07 and '08 teams because I don't think they would be as intimidated by Midd's size in the paint. That Midd  team protected the rim so well that it was a nightmare for guards who built their games around penetration. Amherst 07 and 08 didn't really rely on that as much. I think the transition game of those Amherst teams, led by Olson, would have presented real issues for Midd 11.

[pick and roll]

It's fun to compare teams from different eras as if it were a Madden game - that Midd team is definitely in the conversation because they could always hang around even if they had an off night on offense.  They were so tough on the defensive end leading the country in defensive FG% and blocking an amazing 8 shots a game.  Also Old Guy don't forget Ryan Wholey who started for that Midd team and averaged 10 points game.

[lefrakenstein]

I wonder which teams people would pick as the best NESCAC teams to fall short of the final four? The '12 Amherst squad is obviously up there, but I think the best might be the '06 Amherst team that had Schiel, Bedford, Olson, Casnocha, Russell Lee, Wheeler, McLaughlin and O'Shea as their 8 man rotation. That's three NESCAC POYs, seven NESCAC first-team nods and three NESCAC second-team nods represented, and the rest of the deep 08 class was also on the bench. Talk about loaded.

[AmherstStudent05]

Back on the board, after taking some time off (baseball season). I found the discussion of the relative greatness of Amherst and Williams teams by AmherstStudent05 and NESCAC1 interesting, though I don't have the depth of specific knowledge of those teams to evaluate their comparative arguments.

So my question is: where does Johnny-Come-Lately, that is, the 2011 Middlebury team, with Locke & Sharry (and Wolfin, Thompson, Kizel,and Jamal Davis), etc. stack up against these great Eph-Jeff teams? Midd beat terrific Amherst (Meehan, Workman, Waller, Barise, Kaasila, Toomey) & Williams (Whittington, Wang, Klemm) teams to win the NESCAC tourney at Chandler that year, then went to the final four, losing by one possession to St.Thomas in the semis, who then crushed Wooster (who had edged the Ephs in the semis) the next day for the national championship.

Is that Panther team in the same discussion as Amherst 2003,2007,08, 2013, and Williams 1996, 2003, 04, 2010?

In terms of sheer accomplishment, I think they're a little short, as they didn't win the NESCAC regular season or make a national championship, but in terms of talent, I think they could definitely hang with that group. I think of all those teams the worst matchup for Midd 11 would be the Amherst '07 and '08 teams because I don't think they would be as intimidated by Midd's size in the paint. That Midd  team protected the rim so well that it was a nightmare for guards who built their games around penetration. Amherst 07 and 08 didn't really rely on that as much. I think the transition game of those Amherst teams, led by Olson, would have presented real issues for Midd 11.

Welcome back to the board, Old Guy!

I must confess that the rest of my post will be rather selfish.  I really want to respond to Old Guy's post, but Lefrakenstein basically captured my thoughts exactly.  I will respond anyway, but for anyone who has at most a passing interest in this particular topic of conversation, you should probably just stop reading right now.

When I first started this "legacy" conversation a few weeks ago, I tried to break down the discussion into two distinct spheres: accomplishment and actual ability.  As far as accomplishment goes, I agree with Brother Lefrakenstein: Middlebury 2011 really isn't in the conversation.  I understand that, in a way, this can seem unfair.  After all, Middlebury 2011 only lost twice all year.  One of those losses was to Williams in the regular season without their best player (Sharry) -- the loss that cost them a perfect NESCAC season -- and the other loss was a nail biter against the eventual champion St. Thomas -- a game that Middlebury led for a substantial chunk of time.  However, when all is said and done, 2011 Midd didnt complete a perfect NESCAC season or win the NCAA Tournament (or even make the Championship game) so I just don't see how they could possibly be in the conversation for most accomplished season.

However, on the topic of best team of all time -- a topic of conversation that is far more interesting and inclusive, even if it is almost impossible to discuss in any objective or rigorous way -- it seems to me that 2011 Middlebury absolutely belongs.  The 2011 Panthers were by far the most consistently dominant defensive team I have seen in the dozen or so years I have been following NESCAC basketball.  I am not even sure who the next best team would be (the only team I have seen in recent years that might even possibly be as good defensively as that Midd team was this year's NCC team, but that NCC team didn't have anyone near as intimidating as Locke and I am only basing this judgment on two webcasts from Salem -- although, like the 2011 Panthers, the 2013 NCC team seemed to play consistently fierce defense without any obvious holes to exploit).  While I strongly disagree with PantherNation's apparent view that defense is as important as offense when judging the value of a particular player, I must (I think) accept that when judging a TEAM, offense is as important as defense.  Obviously then, Midd's stellar defensive credentials would be a huge feather in their cap.

Of course, especially when compared to the other great teams we have been discussing, 2011 Midd is sorely lacking in dynamic offensive weapons.  Other than Sharry, I am not sure that that Panther team really had any players who could consistently create their own offense (I might be shortchanging Kizel here, but if memory serves, he wasnt really a huge part of Midd's offense during his freshmen year).  To be sure, that Midd team had a lot of nice offensive pieces: Locke, Wholey, Thompson, etc., but not anywhere near the level of the Amherst and Williams teams we have been discussing.  While I would never say never when discussing a hypothetical basketball game, I don't think Midd 2011 would be very competitive in an up-and-down game against any of these great Amherst or Williams teams from the past.  Now, it is quite possible that Midd's defense was so dominant that there would never be an up tempo game.

Bottom line, if we could somehow create a best-of-seven tournament featuring these all time great teams, I don't think it would be at all unreasonable for you to pick Midd 2011 to win it all (though this pick would likely not be the most popular option).  Indeed, there are some individual match ups where Midd would likely be favored (For instance, while I completely agree with Lefrakenstein that 2007 Amherst would be a relatively tough matchup for 2011 Midd, I also think 2011 Midd would be a very tough matchup for my beloved 2003 Amherst squad).

Lefrakenstein, Amherst 06 actually made the Final Four and did so after Schiel used up his eligibility.  I think you are referring to the Amherst 05 team, a team that holds a soft spot in the heart of AmherstStudent05.  That Amherst team absolutely dominated the NESCAC that year (although the NESCAC was admittedly a little down that year) and we just had a tough day against a very strong Rochester team in the Sweet 16 -- these things can happen in tournament play and underscore my view that there have been so many strong NESCAC teams over the past decade beyond just those elite few that have managed to win games in Salem.

As for the question as to which team was the best never to make it to Salem, I am of course partial to Amherst 2003.  I also really liked the Amherst 2011 team.  I was always a huge fan of Conor Meehan's game, and with Toomey, Barrise, Workman, Williamson, Waller, Holmes, and Kaasila, that team had a lot of nice pieces.  I understand that, from an Amherst point of view, it might not be popular to champion the 2003 or 2011 teams since these teams were ultimately bested by our NESCAC rivals (so if our Amherst teams were good, those Williams and Midd teams must have been really good), but, what can I say, I really liked those Amherst teams.

[grabtherim]

Back on the board, after taking some time off (baseball season). I found the discussion of the relative greatness of Amherst and Williams teams by AmherstStudent05 and NESCAC1 interesting, though I don't have the depth of specific knowledge of those teams to evaluate their comparative arguments.

So my question is: where does Johnny-Come-Lately, that is, the 2011 Middlebury team, with Locke & Sharry (and Wolfin, Thompson, Kizel,and Jamal Davis), etc. stack up against these great Eph-Jeff teams? Midd beat terrific Amherst (Meehan, Workman, Waller, Barise, Kaasila, Toomey) & Williams (Whittington, Wang, Klemm) teams to win the NESCAC tourney at Chandler that year, then went to the final four, losing by one possession to St.Thomas in the semis, who then crushed Wooster (who had edged the Ephs in the semis) the next day for the national championship.

Is that Panther team in the same discussion as Amherst 2003,2007,08, 2013, and Williams 1996, 2003, 04, 2010?

Midd's 2011 Seniors Locke, Davis and Wholey all played big in big games, but Locke was the real game changer.  His shot blocking numbers were awesome, but the shots he affected, not recorded as a stat were of even greater importance. I dont go back as far as you guys do, but of more recent vintage, the Ephs of 2010 or 2011, the Panthers of 2011 and obviously the LJs of this past season were the best of the best.     

[amh63]

Taking a break.....recent posts here have got me thinking about events in the past.  I was struck by the comparisons of past teams from a decade or more ago...not only the members of the teams but the recall of individual strengths of players.  I have been following Amherst BB teams since the turn of the century....Amherst teams in my era were not very good to be charitable.  I can recall particular players in the last decade on the Amherst teams but really struggle to recall the great players that they played against on say the Williams teams.  It is too bad that today's technology was not around....webcasts, etc. to assist in such comparisons.  Even highlights available of players/teams do not always help in supporting memories.  They are like recruiting videos...just the good parts.  I'm not surprised that AmherstStudent05 stated his favorite teams...ones when he was a student at Amherst and when the memories are etched deeply.  The discussions on best teams when one inserts accomplishments/records, etc. is to me even more difficult.....since a team/player may perform better one year when a title was not won due to many things.  I remember that Dr J was an unheralded recruit out of NYC that played at UMass but just got better as he grew and played in the ABA and then the NBA.  MJ's legend grew when he left UNC...in his later years.  Where am I going?....it seems that as the years go by, the teams in the past can get better as the years go by.  Still, the posts here are most interesting and raises good memories.  Please continue and thanks.

[madzillagd]

Interesting article on analytics...

http://www.libertyballers.com/2013/5/14/4329882/sam-hinkie-hiring-what-makes-an-analytic

[nescac1]

A few things I've been meaning to post in response to some of the past team comparisons.

(1) AmherstStudent2005, I still take Williams 2003.  I think the statistical dominance of that team speaks to how powerful of a squad they were.  And they really did pass the eye test.  Combining two all-American players with simply tremendous depth and loads of three points shooters (Tim Folan in particular is a guy who could have started on virtually any NESCAC team, including Amherst 2013), and having two elite post players, would have made that Eph team a handful for anyone.   Continuing the dominance into 2004 is in my view relevant, because the core of the team proved its dominance over a longer period of time.  When we speak of truly elite teams in any sport, we almost always look at teams that won convincingly for a long period, not just one truly spectacular three month run like 2013 Amherst.  [And while 2013 Amherst dominated in the NCAA's, they did have several VERY narrow escapes vs. Williams and Midd late in the season, in addition to two losses to mediocre teams early, before they really started clicking].   Thus, if 2014 Amherst made it back to the Final Four, I think that would strengthen their argument a bit.  Finally, in my view they had a tougher path than Amherst 2013 in the tourney, although granted they did not win games as convincingly.  The Elite 8 win over Amherst WAS convincing and that was over a pretty loaded Amherst team.  Wooster in the semis was really strong and featured an all-American post player, although granted the Ephs did require a few breaks to win that game. 

I really take issue with your assessment of that Gustavus Adolphus team.  First, I watched them, and that was if not the most organized, among the most organized offensive teams I've ever seen in D-3.  Incredible movement off the ball and screening, and tons of ace shooters. The were just clicking on all cylinders and were nearly impossible to guard, with a very unconventional offensive attack, just played with a degree of precision and timing which probably took much of the season to develop.  Although they perhaps had a similar record, in my view they were MUCH better and certainly far more skilled than Mary Hardin Baylor.  In fact, that Gustavus team was on a roll similar to Amherst 2013 when Williams played them ... after some early season struggles, they had won 15/16 games with the only loss a 2-pointer vs. St. Thomas (which they avenged two weeks later with a 26 point victory).  In the tourney, they beat, by double digits, a series of national powers, including a Stevens Point squad that won the next two titles and a loaded Hampden Sydney team.  They were absolutely legit. 

(2) I've noted them before, but in response to the best NESCAC team NOT to make it to Salem, my (again, probably biased ) view is 1996 Williams.  The team had two all-Americans in Nogelo and Chapin, and two of the best defenders I've seen in NESCAC play in John Botti and Mike Humphreys.  Those four, plus a very solid point guard in Jim Frew, composed a really, really solid starting five, particularly defensively, and they had decent (although not spectacular) depth behind them.  They lost on the road (or perhaps it was a neutral site) to a Rowan team which went on to win a national title and which featured, I believe, two D-1 transfers who were virtually unstoppable.  That Rowan team is, I still think, the most talented I've seen in D-3 (not the most disciplined, but the top three players were ridiculously good).  And the Ephs were about even in that Rowan game until Chapin had to leave the game with a migraine.  Less talented, in my view, Williams teams made it to Salem in 1997 and 1998, and I doubt either of those teams could have hung with Rowan.