MBB: NESCAC

[hoya73]

Madz--don't think it's about the fouls, at least not from me.  But since you looked them up you also saw that Coach M. called three timeouts in the last 1:40 at Williams and three timeouts in the last 1:11 at Amherst--essentially every time they scored.  My point was, and is, that at some point the opportunity for a teaching moment is overshadowed by the chance of a hard foul or an injury.

[madzillagd]

Wanted to respond to the earlier comment about Coach Maker focusing more on defense, and less on offense in his practices.  I'm not saying I disagree with the sentiment, but as Coach Maker has pointed out on many an occasion, his offense is extremely complicated to pick up versus his defense relies on just a few key strategies.  That being the case, more time is required to learn the offense and far less time needed to learn the defense. But the point I wanted to make however is it is difficult to look at the track record of these Williams teams under Maker and say he's not doing it the correct way.  We are talking about the winningest active coach in college basketball in his 5+ year tenure.  He's 132-30 at Williams, for an 87% winning %.  Nine of those losses came in his first year which of course players were still learning his system.  That's 21 losses in 4+ years, and if we look at who they lost to it's pretty impressive. 

2013-2014
Amherst       82-70
Amherst     84-73
S. Vermont   88-87

2012-2013
St Thomas 82-79   Final Four Team
Amherst     74-73  National Champion
Amherst      65-48 National Champion
Amherst      83-67 National Champion
Stevens       75-69  Tournament Team

2011-2012
Midd  73-61   Sweet 16 Team
Amherst 80-78     2nd Round Team
Midd   80-79   Sweet 16 Team
Bowdoin  88-84 OT 
Amherst  67-65  2nd Round Team
Wesleyan  66-43
Tufts   80-71
Salem St  83-69   Tournament Team

2010-2011
Wooster 73-71   Final Four
Midd    63-54    Final Four Team
Amherst   92-89 OT  Elite Eight Team

2009-2010
UW-SP 78-73  National Championship
Randolph-Macon 79-74  Final Four Team

2008-2009
Amherst  86-74   Tournament Team
Trinity  83-73
Bowdoin 76-71
Midd  67-61
Hamilton  62-58
Amherst  65-60  Tournament Team
Salem St  76-65     Sweet 16 Team
Framingham St 65-62
Ursinus  85-82

Obviously his first year on the job was the toughest, but after that first year they have been stellar.  We don't know what's happening this year of course yet but after the first year, Williams has only lost 3 games to teams that didn't make the tournament.  All 3 of these came against a team that was riddled with injuries and struggled the entire year, not exactly a black mark against the coach.  Ten of the 30 losses in Maker's time at Williams are against Amherst. 

Could coaching defense be the difference between winning some of these games and losing some, I'm sure it could. However, there's no guarantee that would be the case and I think an argument could be made that Williams picks up more losses if they are not as efficient and difficult to guard because they work so diligently on their offensive scheme. 

[madzillagd]

In a completely unrelated note - I'm not sure how many folks are familiar with it but Mavericks is big out here in Northern CA.  It's live right now.  If you are not familiar with the contest, it's a spur of the moment contest every year (surfers get 24 hour notice on the start of the competition) where they have a window of when they may call the competition and only do so if they have the right conditions.  They are surfing 40-50+ ft waves today. 


http://digg.com/video/watch-the-best-surfers-in-the-world-ride-huge-waves-right-now-at-mavericks-international

[maineman]

Middlebury does what it wants not particularly limited by agreements on "tips" and so forth, aided by Panther Pride, a fine cultural attribute, and a longstanding positive athletic culture for men and women.

Translation?

[grabtherim]

Observations on a blow-out

What to make of Middlebury's 41-point win over St. Joe's of Vermont?

Ok, St. Joe's is not a very good team. But they're not that bad, either. I mean, they stayed within 16 of Williams (80-64) and 8 of the world-beating (I'm winking at you, nescac1) juggernaut Southern Vermont.

Other random observations:

*It was a blast watching Joey Kizel when he doesn't feel the pressure to get the big bucket. He had 10 assists in the first half (!) and finished with a career-high 12.

*Bryan Jones: 10 pts, 7 assists in 13 minutes. And these were not "garbage time" minutes. The freshman—who hadn't seen the floor for most of the season—has jumped into the rotation and is certainly making the most of the opportunity. He had a huge three and a couple of big boards in the comeback win over Conn, and his confidence is growing with each minute on the court.

*Middlebury is a different team with Dylan Sinnickson on the floor. He's averaging 20 and 5 in conference play. If this continues, he has to be in contention for all-conference honors, don't you think?

*Some very nice post moves and flashing to spaces without the ball from Jake Nidenberg. Fun to see.

Bucket, don't sleep on the Mountaineers.  Big tilt vs Elms on Saturday which I'm sure nescac1 will be keeping close tabs on.  Wink to nescac1 from me as well: you might well be correct as at 12-5, they look to be on their way to living up to your "guarantee" of an NCAA berth.  As far as the Midd win goes, I don't read much into it, but like your observations. I still see matchup nightmares for the Panthers against Williams and of course Amherst.   

[jumpshot]

Maineman,

Since Middlebury is not one of the Little Three (Williams, amherst, Wesleyan), Middlebury (and others such as Trinity and the rest of the NESCAC) is not expected to comply with a longstanding explicit agreement among the Little Three limiting the number of "tips" (students qualified academically whom a coach designates to be admitted) to 68. With more teams than the other two schools over which to spread this allocation, Williams is at a slight proportional disadvantage from this ground rule, although it apparently has not made a significant difference given Williams' excellent integration of academics and amateur athletics for decades and is consistent with Williams strategy of a broad-based academic/athletic experience for men and women.

As a practical matter, Middlebury likely has its own internal policies and guidelines in regard to admissions that serve effectively to govern the composition of any particular entering class. Additionally, many observers respect what is referred to as Panther Pride, a sense of school spirit, determination, good sportsmanship, and off-the-field community involvement. Middlebury was recognized years ago in developing men's and women's teams before awards such as the Directors Cup were made.

My view today is that compliance with ground rules such as this one, and in general in NESCAC and with particular schools, has become erratic and inconsistent with one or two exceptions. To think otherwise is likely naive and unrealistic to expect in an era of athletic escalation and competition for attention in the market segment of Division III liberal arts colleges. The playing field within NESCAC clearly is not even ----so what? The game still remains for the players, no one is whining, and life goes on. It is what it is.

Hope this helps clarify ---

[Bucket]

Vandy....nice to see the Panthers seem to be finding"their groove" offensively.  Was going to check in on several conference teams' games last night but things came up.  Tufts and your team blew out the opponents.  Saw the Score 115-75, Panthers....WoW.  Thought that Amherst better scout Middlebury sooner than later.  Then remember that Middlebury sometimes plays an in-state team that has a run and gun style and does not play much defense.  Was last night the night when everyone scores?

Castleton is the Vermont team that runs a variation of "the System." St. Joe's had very little bench, so they don't do that. They did push the ball, but nothing extreme. Most of their other games, with a few exceptions, were not high-scoring affairs. For instance, they lost to Williams, 80-64, and Emerson, 80-74.

[amh63]

Bucket....thanks for the info.  On face value of looking at scores only...Amherst lost early to Emerson 90-79 in an away game. So if one plays the linkage game with scores....Middlebury should beat Amherst. .  One thing in Amherst's favor wrt their game with the Panthers this year is that it is in LeFrak.  I'm presently concerned with the game with Trinity....a somewhat "unknown" team within the conference.  They are not the same team that Williams beat easily early in the season.  In particular, their young front court player from NYC is getting notice with his play.
Tufts with Ferris back and Sabety and other veterans lost to Trinity badly based on the score.
Wish somebody can provide a good read on Trinity for me and other board posters.

[toad22]

Because there has seemed to be a lot of complaining about Williams' actions in the last few minutes of the Amherst game, I reviewer the last 5 minutes to see if there was anything objectionable. There wasn't anything remotely problematic. In the last 3 minutes, both teams were called for two fouls. Both Williams fouls were touch fouls, one by Robertson and one by Sime. There was no heavy action in the game. Nobody got mad and lashed out, on either side. Neither coach did anything untoward. The benches were both completely under control. What was all the fuss about? I still don't know. The kind if ending I hate, is where the team that is behind keeps fouling. That is tedious beyond belief.

[magicman]

amh63
Check your personal messages.

[old_hooper]

An amazing basketball story.  I think this is the high school Aaron Toomey graduated from.

N.C. teen hits miracle shot, with assist from late friend http://www.cbsnews.com/news/north-carolina-basketball-team-gets-miracle-assist

[AmherstStudent05]

Madzilla, great and informative post as usual.  Just one small quibble.  I've got to stand up for my Jeffs and remind you that Amherst reached the Sweet 16 in 2011-12.

Speaking of defending Amherst, this may be unfair or uncharitable for me, but my instincts tell me that you are trying to take a shot at Amherst's recruiting practices.  However, I have re-read your two latest posts a couple of times each and I confess that your ultimate point remains inscrutable to me.  Accordingly, I will just assume that you are saying that Amherst's success in basketball is in spite of its being on the wrong end of the uneven recruiting field in the NESCAC.  I will also note that Williams and Wesleyan have larger student bodies than Amherst, so their coaches, all else equal, have a larger number of generalists to draw from to help round out their teams.  While I don't particularly like these kind of recruiting discussions, I am not sure I would mind if there was a little more transparency in the whole "tips" process.  I am sure I am not the only Jeff who wonders how many tips Williams actually devotes to skiers and wrestlers each year.

Toad, God bless you, but why on Earth would you torture yourself by watching the last 5 minutes of Wednesday's game?  I can think of many better ways to spend an hour. (I wouldn't mind re-watching the middle 25 minutes though.)  Still, I do share your view that Williams did absolutely nothing dirty -- and, as an Amherst fan, I am not inclined to give Williams the benefit of the doubt on pretty much anything.  But, to be honest, like hoya (perhaps?), something in my gut didn't love how the final 5 seconds played out.  Toomey was just holding on to the ball -- the game was well beyond over at this point -- and two Ephs came over to him, and #40 seemed to take a swipe at the ball (it even looked like he may have made contact with Toomey, but I couldn't be sure from the webcast, and I will not relive that agony).  Interestingly, something similar happened at the end of the last Midd game.  The poor Midd guard is just trying to dribble in place to run out the last 10 seconds, and a St. Joe's player -- down 40 points mind you -- decides to take a swipe at the ball.  Again, this is just a very small quibble, and I don't think even this constitutes dirty behavior at all, but I do think it is debatable whether such conduct is best or not (curious what the Midd posters thought about that last play in their game).  Anyway, Madzilla is absolutely right:  Toomey didn't need to be on the court at that point in any event.

Old Guy, fantastic reference to Schiano.  I was thinking about the exact same incident when this discussion first came up.  For those of you who don't recall, Greg Schiano instructed his players to bull rush the line of scrimmage when the opposing offense lined up in the victory formation (an all too often occurrence during Schiano's reign in Tampa). Schiano reasoned that his players care taught to compete for a full sixty seconds and that a bull rush might cause an improbable fumble, whereas the generally accepted custom (of not rushing at all) only ensured defeat.  Schiano even claimed that this tactic had worked for him when he was at Rutgers, though I believe this was quickly debunked.  Anyway, when the Bucs employed this tactic against my Giants, Coach Coughlin was non too pleased, and my usually unfailingly polite coach had some sharp words for Schiano at the post game handshake.  Interestingly, many of the Bucs players interviewed after the game sheepishly admitted that they were embarrassed by this tactic, but had to do as instructed.  Schiano did nothing but compete to the end, but I think it is fair to say that his strategy was pretty uniformly condemned by the rest of the NFL and will likely no longer be employed this season now that Schiano finds himself unemployed.

All this is to say that "proper" sports etiquette may not always be so simple as just competing until the final whistle (it is, of course, also generally considered to be unsportsmanlike to run up the score).  I do want to say again though that wherever I fall on the larger debate, I don't think for an instant that any Williams player or coach either engaged, or intended to engage in any kind of "dirty" conduct whatsoever.  My only gripe was my selfish desire to see the game end by 9:30.

Anyway, I look forward to putting this topic of conversation behind us and moving forward to today's great slate of Conference games.

[Old Guy]

We are talking about the winningest active coach in college basketball in his 5+ year tenure.  He's 132-30 at Williams, for an 87% winning %. Madzillagd

Hard to believe I'm the only one who had some difficulty with this assertion. Mike Maker is without question an outstanding coach, but can we dispense of this "winningest active coach in college basketball" nonsense. That is based the following phrase "in his 5+ year tenure" at Williams. If the statement is technically true, it is at best a mighty fine distinction.

First all, 132-30 is not 87%, it's 81.5%.

So I'm not sure the statement is even technically correct: Steve Moore at Wooster has an 81.6% (619-140) winning record over 26 seasons!

Here are some other winning percentages over the same 5+ year period:

Jeff Brown, Middlebury - 139-23  86% (85.8%)

Dave Hixon, Amherst - 130-29   82% (81.8)  (and that includes the 11 loss season in '09-10)

So there are two coaches in NESCAC that have higher winning percentages in the last five years than the "winningest active coach in college basketball" who has been a D3 head coach for those same five years. Huh? That's why it's a "fine distinction."

Just FYI:
St. Thomas also has a higher winning percentage over the last 5+ years (88% 148-20), but they had a coaching change in 2011: their long-time Coach Steve Fritz retired. Their numbers are incredible.

I checked one other school: Washington University (St, Louis). Their coach, Mark Edwards, has been there 33 years; 583-264 68.8% (though he won only 17 games in his first three seasons); in the last 5+ seasons Wash U has won 80% of their games (they lost 12 games in '09-'10).

I don't know Midwest basketball very well. There may be other coaches whose 5+ year records surpass 81.5%. I'm just trying to make a point here.

Check my numbers if you like: I added the teams' 5+ year records by hand - and I'm in the Humanities, but I was careful. Addition and subtraction are my specialties. I did have my 16-year old daughter, Young Girl, check the %s on her phone and we matched.  There's probably a page on D3 Hoops that provides these numbers.

None of this is to disparage Mike Maker's coaching ability and record. The fact that he's Bucket's friend endorses him further.


 

[P'bearfan]

Big news in Brunswick - Brian Hurley has been cleared to play.  I'm not sure that he will actually get any PT today against Colby but this is good news for the P'bears.  Whenever he starts playing I'm sure there will be some rust and the coaches will limit his minutes.  He's a great young man and I'm glad he won't lose the entire season

[grabtherim]

So many numbers Old Guy.  Must be a slow warm day in Cameroon.  Staying with the numbers theme, it may be time for you to chill out with a couple of bottles of 33.  Seriously, I see your point.  Like most leagues, the NESCAC has some really fine coaches, some on the rise, a few who have lost a bit off their fastball and a couple who should be put out to pasture. 

Some interesting matchups today.  I am looking forward to Amherst at Trinity.  I don't expect the LJs to lose in Hartford, but want to see how the Bantams react at home after a very strong weekend on the road.  Assuming they dont get off to a bad start, they should be able to play with Amherst up front, but Toomey and pals could have a field day against the Trinity guards.  Speaking of coaches for those who have not seen Cosgrove coach in person, it's a must watch.  He obviously knows the game and preps his team well, but before, after and especially during a game he is a walking talking to himself cyclone who looks like a heart attack about to happen.  Not sure if his style works long term, but he will never be confused with someone who doesnt care deeply for his team.